The Crackin' Backs Podcast

Parents vs. Gamers: Peace Treaty

• Dr. Terry Weyman and Dr. Spencer Baron

Share episode

This week on the Crackin' Backs Podcast, we're exploring the virtual battlegrounds of competitive gaming with Dr. Jon Fledzinskas, a clinical and performance psychologist who's at the forefront of melding mental resilience with digital prowess. As the stakes in Esports and online communities climb, so does the mental toll on players, where identity, self-worth, and digital achievements are closely intertwined. Dr. Fledzinskas lends his expertise on mitigating the stress and anxiety that come hand-in-hand with the competitive gaming landscape.

In an era where online connections can be as meaningful as those in the physical world, we delve into the psychological nuances of digital friendships. What benefits do they bring, and what risks do they pose, especially to those finding offline interactions challenging? Dr. Fledzinskas navigates us through these digital domains, offering a nuanced view of social connections made through gaming.

Looking to the horizon, Dr. Fledzinskas discusses the evolving field of therapy and sport psychology tailored for gamers. With emerging trends and breakthrough technologies on the rise, learn how therapeutic practices are adapting to better cater to the unique needs of the gaming community.

The quest for balance is a theme that resonates deeply in our conversation. Dr. Fledzinskas shares his strategies for maintaining a healthy equilibrium between gaming, mental wellness, and physical health. Moreover, he addresses a common generational divide, providing insightful strategies for parents to understand and connect with their gaming children, fostering stronger family bonds in the process.

The topic of digital detox is more relevant than ever, with games, screens, and social media exerting an addictive pull on our brains. Discover Dr. Fledzinskas' approach to navigating this modern challenge, balancing the joy and relaxation gaming can offer with its potential for addiction.

For families where gaming passion leads to conflict, Dr. Fledzinskas offers tangible strategies for bridging the gap, ensuring support for the gamer while maintaining a healthy digital-real-world balance.

Dr. Fledzinskas also shares his advice for integrating gaming into life as a positive reinforcement, not a distraction, with practical tips for non-competitive gamers focusing on academic or professional goals.

Lastly, the conversation turns to the fascinating intersection of neurodiversity and gaming. Dr. Fledzinskas provides insights into how neurodivergent individuals experience gaming differently, offering valuable perspectives for gamers and their support networks alike.

Join us on the Crackin' Backs Podcast for a deep and engaging discussion with Dr. Jon Fledzinskas, where we uncover the layers of mental health in the gaming world. It's an episode packed with strategies, insights, and forward-thinking approaches to gaming and well-being.

We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.

Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Welcome to the cracking backs podcast. Today's guest is Dr. John Fledzinskas a clinical and performance psychologist, where we talk about the world of gaming, or more specifically, in the arena where gaming meets the mind. Today we're leveling up our understanding of the mental game behind the screens. With competitive gaming at the forefront, we'll explore the stress, the strategies, and the sake of gamers. How do digital warriors keep their cool and find balance in the realm where victory and identity blur the lines, from the depths of online communities to the cutting edge of therapy and sports psychology? We're navigating the virtual and the real. Join us as we tackle the quest for mental health in the gaming galaxy. decode the dynamics of digital friendships, and forge paths for parents and gamers to coexist in peace. With insights from Dr. Floods in schools, and stories from the trenches, we're pressing play on a conversation that can't be paused. Ready, set. Listen. Hey, Dr. John, it's great to have you on the air. This shows gonna be a fun one, because we talked about gaming and how all this exponential growth of computers and screen time has really affected. Well, I would like to say all of us, but you know, namely a certain generation is really fixated on that these these screen times. So welcome to the show, John.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Thanks so much for having me. I mean, yeah, we're talking about computer I

Dr. Spencer Baron:

have it all right. Yeah. So giant competitive gaming can be a pressure, you know, it's pressure filled with some of these athletic events and sports that we actually talk about. And then Dr. terian, it typically treat But what advice do you have for gamers dealing with the same stress and anxiety from the elements of their competition? Especially, you know, personal identity and self worth?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

is, as a big question. The question is big, because while performance is big, and a lot that goes into that, and same with wellness, but competitive gaming itself is such a different landscape than traditional sports, right? Culturally, literally physically, right? Like ergonomically, the time you put into it, the culture of gaming itself, a couple of points come to mind. First one would be just looking at your overall balance in your life. So what are you doing for your personal wellness, who you connected with? Who actually supports you in your endeavors, I've worked with a lot of gamers who their families still kind of don't understand gaming, maybe they've been a little ostracized, or they might just be kind of disconnected from some people in their lives. So they have their gamer side of their lives and their non gamer. So just making sure you have good connections and community with people support you a lot of good information online about ergonomics and gaming and making sure you're training your body as well as your mind. Right, that really wasn't something we saw 510 years ago emphasized a ton in eSports in gaming. And then the mental side of it too, right, you know, you're playing a game. And and that's like a whole nother podcast episode, I swear it is the mental side of things like there's so much that goes into competitive gaming, that is mental you are you are sitting still and using your hands and your brain, right. And if you make a mistake, if you get pissed off, if you're anxious, you're kind of just left to sit there and try to do something with it. So having good mental routines, both outside and inside the game itself, for your own personal wellness, and then knowing how to respond to stress when it inevitably comes up is those are some pretty key points for wellness and performance in this game.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Is it Do you feel it's affecting a lot of the social skills of those who are avidly gaming?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

No, no. Oh, man, that's a fun one to ask me because like I'm this is this is gonna preface every answer I give you. I am all in. I'm all in advocating gaming being super healthy thing. Gaming, gaming usually kind of gets scapegoated. And this has happened historically in the United States, right. Gaming is scapegoated as something that is particularly bad, right? Because you know, you're not getting physical exercise. There's this myth like you're not socializing, you're not getting good social experience. Gaming actually is probably one of the most accessible social outlets for a lot of kids, teens and adults. Right now, too. I'll even give you the I mean, even in my own personal life, man, like most of my friends, you Are gamer nerds that I met when I was between the ages of seven and 12. And, you know, when you think about gaming, right as a social thing, you you're talking with somebody, you're not looking at them. Okay, that's fine. It's not, you know, eye contact and being in a personal physical space that is like, that holds like a moral highness, I guess. It's like in the hierarchy of like, what's the best social interaction. So you're not getting that, right. So culture, there's little stigma around that not being good socialization. But then you also think about what you're what you're doing while you're talking. So in gaming, you can be gaming with somebody on a team. Or you can just be gaming and talking to somebody online. That became the standard of living during COVID, by the way, that was literally like the world got pushed to do that. Now, we're kind of coming out of that. And, yeah, you know, gaming and socializing, I think are really healthy. For a lot of people that might have social anxiety. Or they just maybe don't connect with people in ways where they don't like small talk, they just want to talk about their shared interests. And, yeah, I mean, you can make lifelong friends with gaming. So I'm all I'm all in as an advocate for gaming B as being a very healthy social outlet for people in a way to connect communally culturally shared space wise, let alone people who maybe have disabilities to can't even get out physically a lot, right? The gaming cyberspace is really good place to connect. Do either of you guys play video games?

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I used to play I was I crushed I was crushed Pong. I was I was a pawn killer. are engineers a big gamer?

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Dude, yeah.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

And David Heyman plays games.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Right? That's why he's

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

got to be the best speed runner in the world. Oh, man, I hope you have a question about speed running. That's a super fun topic.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Spencer, and if you don't know is speed running. You never heard of it. So you might as well just go with this. It's just out there. Oh, it

Dr. Spencer Baron:

is it? Might as well later. I'm gonna,

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

I'll please Okay. Yeah, tangents are great, too, by the way, very healthy for the brain. So speedrunning is a it's basically a competitive subset of gaming, any game can be sped run. Okay, so speed running is completing a game as quick as you can. So beating the game getting to the end screen with the credits. Typically, a lot of speed runners can find ways to just like skip levels, glitch through walls, views, game mechanics that they can complete the game as fast as possible. And there are literal cultures that develop right within these games around just speed running. So that's how that's how rich gaming is as a medium. Like you can get into the nitty gritty. It'd be like if they were when they did that big three thing for the NBA basketball, right? They had the big three competitions and all the old school NBA players coming back. I don't know what happened to that, by the way, I kind of wish they'd bring that back. That was kind of like a niche subculture. Yeah, that was growing out of basketball, right? That is what speed reading is, for a lot of different video games where these gamers just want to go fast, they want to complete the games as quick as possible. And in master these like, really quick and complex movements that they have to sequentially do for some speed runs can be 20 minutes, some can be like five hours. That's as fast as it gets, man.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Good. All right. Well, thanks for that tangent. Any any psychological benefits that come from that?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Definitely, you definitely get a sense of mastery, really good connection with community. So you get people who are very much as interested as you are in this game. That's very cool. Probably good with schedule keeping, right? You know, a lot of people struggle with time management, which is an executive function. If you don't know what the different executive functions are. I think a lot of people don't know off the top of their head like you can google those but go for time management and prioritization.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

What's up, go for?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Okay, all of them memorize.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

It's throw out of throw out some good ones.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Thank you. Okay, that's, that's easier. Now I can relax sports psychology, less pressure, working memory, the ability to remember what you just saw, or heard, prioritization. So putting things ahead of others on the task lists, time management and organization. So being able to keep a schedule, keep appointments, delineate when you're going to do things, not plan ahead, like a day or a week ahead, and I'm motional control, that's another executive function, which we kind of just talked about, right? Like being able to perform well. And athletes, you know, you guys are you guys are more adjacent to sports world, right and competitive sports and performance wise, right? All the executive functions are used by some of the best athletes in the world to win, they have to refine them quite a bit. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Wow. You know, it's funny, you're shedding a whole different light on gaming. But I will say that, I would like to delve into eSports for a moment. Before I do, we had a chiropractor that her involvement was the chiropractor for the Dallas Mavericks that's owned by Mark Cuban. Mark Cuban called her and said to her that he's starting an eSports, program and team, and we'd like her to be involved in managing some of their musculoskeletal complaints. And she's thinking, well, they're just sitting there, what do you talk to her surprise, the intensity involved. And so she, when she showed up there, she said, if we're going to do this, we're gonna do this to the max, we gotta go over their nutritional programs, we got to give them some exercises, they got to de stress. I was fascinated, what what would you say is, you know, the typical practice time for a person on eSports?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah, that's changed over the last few years, there used to be sort of this grind mindset where let me give you a brief rundown of the history of that. So eSports, you know, when it wasn't big people were traveling to other countries to live in homes with other players that where, like, for instance, South Korea, they take gaming way more seriously than the US. They live in the same house because they'd share internet and they could communicate directly and link up their training schedules. Wow, that's kind of like a gamer house. Basically, they called it, those people would grind for 1012 hours a day. And like, their nutrition probably wasn't that great. Their sleep quality work probably wasn't that great. And what do you expect? I mean, you put a bunch of young people who are kind of going at it on their own in the same house, and they're like, let's just do this man. Like, you know, that's not that you're not going to get great results. Current culture around that is, I'm sorry, if you hear the dog barking in the background. Wait, hold on. I gotta tell I gotta tell TED to be quiet. Alright, sorry. I tried to do it as compassionate was good. So you get nowadays, you know, you still got that grind culture, a lot of these gamers stay up really late, because some of the best competition you can get in training virtually is online late. People who come at you know, who are a little bit older and have work schedules in the day are college students, right, and they don't have a lot of time to game in the day. So and then you get overseas competition, right? So if you're an American player, and you want to play late, so there's like a daytime player overseas, you need to stay up late to get that level of competition. So you will still kind of get people in that grind mindset. But eSports, I think is a culture is trying to include, you know, more of a balanced mindset nowadays with physical and mental health. And you're starting to see more prioritization of things like nutrition, and work life balance, taking breaks, right, especially if you get tilted, it's so easy to get pissed off and tilted, tilts been adopted by eSports by the way, like from poker. It's so easy to get tilted in gaming, if you start if you're on a losing streak and just being able to take a break and step back break up your your training regimen. It's been helpful. What's

Dr. Terry Weyman:

tilted? Is that just being pissed off? Is that what that means?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah, tilt is getting getting mad when you make successive mistakes, or you've suffered a few losses in a row during certain rounds or games. And it really degrades your your performance. It's like performance, degrading frustration and anger.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

God. So let me ask you about the, the, it was always fascinating to me the evolution of like these energy drinks used to be something that was so exclusive to, you know, going to the gym and training and then I might my I have a son, that's a jock and one that's a nerd. That's actually graduated for cybersecurity. So you can imagine how much time he's spent on the computer. And I talked him about he goes, Yeah, they have gamers fuel or something like that. So is that still something that it's, it's consumed? And it's I can't imagine what it would be like sitting there for hours.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

I have no personal experience with any of that. I've never even drank a monster so whatever nutritionist resides in either of you, you're probably like yay, go John. But I mean, you know, no shade anyone who drinks that stuff. If you need that. You need it. I've never needed it. But yeah, that's still that's still exists. I I think a lot of sponsors, corporate sponsors for esports, right, because eSports is funded by corporate sponsors. It's not funded traditionally, like, you know, against us the NBA like Mark Cuban and Steve Ballmer, you know, these these high rollers who can afford teams and fund them eSports needs to pull from corporate sponsors, so you get like Doritos, and Mountain Dew and Gatorade and stuff like that, right? And G Fuel or gamer fuel. Yeah, they're, they definitely push its marketing. You know, like, here's your niche, gamers like sugar, and they need caffeine, like, all

Dr. Terry Weyman:

right, but I'm gonna ask, I mean, ask the elephant in the room, because being old school, and like I said, Pong when maybe Pac Man, that was about as far as I go. So there's a huge disconnect between my generation and even my kids, where we come home, that we see them sleeping until tender love, and then they game all day long. And they don't have a job. And we're like, and we just focus on while you're just being a lazy bum, and you're just playing games all day long. And you're that provide, you know, that working out paying your bills, you're not doing all that. And I know it's wrong. You know, I know, you know, just like my parents thought, you know, Elvis Presley rock'n'roll was like the devil, right? So I know, I know, every generation goes through that. Right? So how do you bridge this gap? And for the gamers, we, we hear oh, it's so addictive. We it's this and, and they become mindless rats, and they don't do anything, which is also wrong coming from that standpoint. So how do you? How do you address that elephant for both the parent and the kid or the kid? Maybe you need to, you need to pay your bills. But you also need to enjoy your social life. And then for the parent going, they need to pay their bills, but they also have to have a social life. How do you bridge that gap?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

How much time for I want to applaud you by the way. Like that's, that's I commend you on saying that doesn't seem right. Or that seems wrong. Like, it's so easy to say it's the gaming I even have clients come in and steal like for therapy parents come in. They're like, they're addicted to the game. It's the gaming the game so bad. The game causes them to do all this stuff. And like, it's not it, man. You know, it's easy to make it about that was not it? So I applaud you for recognizing that. And yeah, it's not an easy answer, because it's multifaceted answer. Gaming, you know, to under the first part of your question, right to like, understand it more. Just ask questions, maybe game with your kids. Be curious about it, like, what do they get from it? So is it a competitive game? Who do they know in the game? How do you play the game? How to get better at the game? How long is the game been out? What's the genre of the game? There's so many damn genres and sub genres of games. So just be curious, you know, approach it, like if your kid is playing a new sport, or competing in some kind of new school based thing, academics thing, right? Just be curious and ask more questions, because you'll, you'll hear them talk a lot about it, right? And they'll demonstrate how much they've learned and what they're getting out of it. So just be curious, maybe game with them if you can, don't be afraid of sucking at first because it's hard, man. I mean, gaming is its own language. You know, if I was like, go go buy a Playstation and play fortnight. Okay, first off, you got to know which PlayStation to buy. You got to set up the PlayStation. You got to know how to use the controller how to set up the Wi Fi how to set up the system on the TV. Gotta know how to adjust it, got to know how to install fortnight got to know how to play fortnight and a very basic level and you gotta learn how to master fortnight has a lot of steps. Right? That's one of the biggest barriers I think generationally is kids somehow can quote unquote, get it easily, because they've grown up with it young and they can access it. And gaming, you know, honestly sometimes isn't very accessible to people who don't play them. So it can feel like it's kind of insular sort of like network right? It's sort of insular culture. So yeah, just be curious try to connect and then ask him if you need help with learning how to play him too. Or you know if you don't understand what they meant when they say needed or Tilton that's that's the first first party

Dr. Terry Weyman:

well yeah, like parents or kids to make a living and and do all that and we see it's so time consuming during the day and they'll play all day all night and they're not working to bring home and then I hear your parents will hear well, this you know, Terry Crews is a big gamer. I go well, Terry Crews is also making millions in his job and comes home and that's how he relaxes you know, so you're not making a dime you you like that. So how do we how are we as parents install work ethic to get to bring money in but on the same time there have work ethic because you're playing these games and doing all the steps you just showed you just said

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah, right. Oh, so you recognize the work ethics being funneled into the game? Oh, Yeah, amazing. I don't I don't know where you learn to think like that. But that's awesome man. Like, seriously, I wish, I wish, I

Dr. Terry Weyman:

wish they would take their work ethic and all this stuff. They spent learning this game and put it into where it actually makes money. But you're right, so they have the work ethic, but they're not paying their bills. So. So that's where my disconnect as an old time parent, I understand the work, I just wish they transformed it into where she covered their bills and where they can live on their own and they weren't living off parents couches till they're 40. Yeah.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

him this is where the multifaceted part of my, my answer comes in. Because there's a lot that goes into play, right? There's the state of our nation and the economy, there is what there's what young people have access to in terms of resources for their own knowledge. Other people they know in their lives who are working or not, there are different executive functions. And if they're burnt the heck out if they're tired, if they're under resourced. If they don't have good sleep schedules, or energy management or connection with other people, it can feel like, you know, an insurmountable task to not only just try to get a job, but first off, apply for one and do an interview like that. That can seem a lot heavier to them than it might to us who you know, you we all have jobs, right. Like, you're I don't know if this podcast. But but you know, I mean, like we have, we're here already, and they're not. And we're a different generation. So growing up in their generation, seeing what they've had, what they've been through with the economy and COVID and these wars going on, and their schools, right, and safety stuff, like there's so much going on culturally and economically, I think that's burning people out. And I really think people are still kind of healing from COVID. We had to normalize living on our own isolated, in a room away from loved ones for quite a while. And, you know, it's it's shocking to think that we wouldn't, we wouldn't glean the repercussions of that we couldn't see the repercussions of that years down. I think we're experiencing that right now. So so to your answer, Dr. To your question, Dr. T, the answer, I think, is economically and socially, you know, kids may be under resourced or overwhelmed. And young people are still trying to kind of find themselves and understand their identity, and having to do all that while also applying for a job where maybe they wouldn't feel like they're compensated well enough, or they don't, you know, quote unquote, need to because they're living with their parents, still, that can be a big deterrent. But that's when it becomes all about the game, right? Because you see the game being played, and you're like, it's this damn game, if you could get off this game, you could apply these skills elsewhere. I really don't think it's ever going to be the game. Just like it's not anything else. You know, I don't know if one of your questions is going to ask me about gaming addiction as a construct, right. But well, I can get into that. But that's, that's my answer for you. It's under resource executive function. It's a lack of good social support to kind of branch out more. And it's economic and social stressors that really preclude young people from kind of putting themselves out more need to get in the job.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

So we have a dilemma going on. And it's the diagnosis of ADHD Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. And more and more kids are becoming diagnosed and on Adderall or the other one. We can easily say, oh, it's because of the gaming, you know, because everything's so high speed. And, but in actuality, I, I've witnessed a enormous focus and intensity with the game. So how do you have ADHD, but yet still are hyper able to hyper focus for hours? So I think it's the I think it's the excuse of the drug companies to try and get people more, you know, diagnosed and on Adderall. You know, your thoughts on that?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah. So back to executive function, I don't know how many more times I'll say the phrase so sorry he afforded with ADHD, if you want to look at it in a simplistic way, as a brain type or a neuro type, where your executive functions, right, the different parts of your brain that you that execute these different things like your working memory, your sustained attention, that are not working, as well as society would expect or working in the ways that society expects, right. That's where medication comes into play. We say, Oh, you're ADHD, you didn't do this thing I wanted you to do that you found very boring, therefore you have a deficit. And then we're going to give you medication to kind of hyperdrive your brain to do the thing we want you to do. So that's why that's why you're seeing it's because the demands of society are asking these people with brains. that are wired in this way to do things in ways that might not work for them. Sorry that my dog came in for a second. So that's, that's, that's how I look at ADHD in the current paradigm of getting things done and needing medication and whatnot. This can be for work or school or whatever. With with hyper fixation, right and hyper focusing, that's just how people who are ADHD whose brains are wired their attention is interest based. So, you know, for for you or me or somebody else who might not identify with ADHD or have that diagnosis or brain type, we might be able to do things that we find arduous or boring or slow, right? In a way that's easier for us, we might not enjoy it. I mean, the word boring exists for a reason. But we might be able to actually sustain our attention on people who are ADHD neurodivergent. Right is kind of a blanket statement for people whose brains have developed differently than society would call the norm, ADHD, just being one of those brain types. These people struggle to do things that their brain say, Hey, this is boring, this is taking too long. This causes me distress or discomfort. So the gaming safe haven because I'm interested in this so I can engage with this, I actually feel competent. It can be also like a self efficacy thing, right? Like, Oh, heck, this game that I'm really good at, I can sustain my attention on this. This is a very positive source of self esteem for me. Whereas my math homework, which I don't really understand, it's not taught in a way that my brain understands. And I'm not paying attention to it. I can't do it. And it makes me feel like I'm not intelligent. So I don't want to engage in

Dr. Terry Weyman:

question with performance enhancements, drugs, we see we see this in, in physical sports, you know, all sports. But do you see any performance enhancing practices in the world of gaming to kind of give people an edge? Other? I've always heard south, the Koreans have faster internet, which gives them an edge. Do you see this performance enhancing drugs coming in to give people an edge?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

I'm drinking one right now, buddy coffee right here, good old caffeine. But also Adderall. So there was a time where no medication was being checked at all for players, right, and gaming and eSports. And Adderall was just being used like, like hotcakes. Right? It was just a performance enhancing stimulant that would help them hyper focus, while they're gaming, keep their energy levels up if they're getting tired. See, I'm not I'm not involved that much at a deep level in terms of eSports medicine. So I don't know what the current regulations are. But I do know that in terms of regulations in general, eSports is very scattered. So there's not like one eSports hub. If you I was on Twitter the other day, or sorry, x, I'm just going to call it Twitter. I was on Twitter the other day. And I saw this, there's a researcher psychologist who posts about Collegiate Esports, and what's going on in that world. And he posted like, I'm just gonna make up a number, there were like 50 Different eSports collegiate leagues that were developed by different, you know, areas in the United States, different collections of colleges, maybe from D, one to d3 level or outside of the NCAA. So it's, it's kind of like the Wild West in terms of organizational structure in eSports right now, and if that's how it's like, you know, as an organization, I can only imagine what it's like in regulatory practices or things like Adderall.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Alright, so let's see social media and how it affects, you know, the brain and, you know, the addictive behavior of social media. Can your, your approach help, in a sense, detox, these people that are addicted or socially, or they just are so immersed in it that they can't let loose from?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah, what how, like, how you shifted it there because you're like, are immersed, like, you know, I don't, I don't think like I know, the term addiction is used loosely now. Right? If you do something over a long period of time, and you feel like you're, you're doing just that, like we call it addictive, right? You could even say Netflix is addicted, addicting. To me, my approach is if gaming and technology is being used in abundance, right, and there are other areas of your life that are being neglected or you're not getting your needs met. What's behind that? So why isn't that? Why is it that the phone or social media becomes the area you get your needs met? Right? What do you not have outside of that that would help you get these needs met? Are you super burnt the hell out and all of your executive functions are challenging for you to use right? And you feel like you have to go at this alone. And you feel like a dog sorry. And you feel like maybe all the all the people in your life right? Your teachers, maybe even your parents, right They are judging you for doing this thing. And so you feel really incompetent, you feel like, Oh, I'm incapable I enjoy this thing. But everyone else seems to think it's terrible. And I'm just supposed to figure it out and do better, right? That could actually cause you to feel shame and actually dive into the behavior more, because it's your only way of coping. So my approach would be unlink, shame from enjoying whatever it is you enjoy, right? Don't beat yourself up for doing it for a long period of time. I don't think there's a quote unquote, right amount of time to do it. I think the approach could be less about avoiding it and more about incorporating other things in your life. So how can you use social media and do other great things for yourself, like, get a little bit more exercise, connect with your friends and family more? Right? Take care of your body, take care of your mind. You don't have to throw away the thing that you love, but you need to incorporate

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Alright, on that note, what language do you use, because I'm still trying to be that better parents that and is, and I know I'm not alone. It's a It's across the world and what language you use to get that that person who will spend a lot of time in a game, again, who doesn't have the job, to support that, those, those weaknesses to help get that call away, or support those things that to help that that gamer or that person find balance in their life so they can pay their bills, and still enjoy their social aspects of gaming. I was very specific. So I have no problem saying this specific. I have no problem at all, you know, because I think if you if you talk specifically, there's gonna be other people, they're gonna identify with it. So of course, it's specific.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Of course, man. Yeah. I mean, you're you're speaking to, you know, 1000s of parents across America right now. Yeah, the language. I mean, hey, you can say something's addictive. That's fine. I mean, that's common vernacular, right? I understand what you mean when you say it. Because it's, it's a, it's an overabundance of one thing, as opposed to a diversity of things for wellness, right? The key point there being I detach the stigma from Social Media and Gaming, I think of them as positive things. And then I think of more about how do we diversify your life? If that's what you want to write? Like, it's kind of like if you'd work with somebody who's actually in addiction recovery. What else do you want in your life? Do you want to diversify the things you do for yourself care that has to come from themselves intrinsically. The language I use is just really affirming and non shame based. So you know, it's kind of like, I mean, you guys even both were like redirecting your language while we've been talking. And you don't need to walk on eggshells with me, by the way, you could think you could think gaming is bad, or addictive. I'm not hurt by that. I'm not offended. Because I understand where you're coming from. Right? Like you live in America, you live in the same culture as me. I've heard all this stuff to most of my life. Even growing up when I was a kid, right? Like this game a why you gaming so much. But yeah, the language would really just be more of a curiosity based thing. And then I think, to help, you know what you said, Dr. T. And this is, hey, this ain't a personal plug here. But getting a therapist who understands different executive functions, and understands neuro divergence, I think is really key in helping people who game and ways people think is overly abundant. And I really think, a good understanding of like those key areas I talked about, like social connections, mental health and physical health. I mean, even health related conditions, too, because a lot of neurodivergent people, I'm just I'm conflating gamers with neurodivergent people, right? Not all gamers are neurodivergent. Folks, of course, but a lot of neurodivergent people have concurrent health conditions, two that either go unrecognized or under diagnosed. Like for instance, a lot of autistic folks have EDS, Ehlers Danlos and pots, right, where you know, your orthostatic changes when? Yeah, a lot of autistic folks have had those health conditions and they can go unrecognized or undiagnosed, right? If I have pots and EDS, and my body is really susceptible to hyper mobile damage, and if I move around a lot, I get headaches and my sleeps terrible. You know, what's a really accessible way of regulating myself? And now, it's good, I

Dr. Terry Weyman:

think. And I think you're absolutely right. I think a lot of it is just just because it doesn't, you know, understand something doesn't mean it's wrong. You know, it's just trying to find the understanding and find how to support and sort of how to shame I think those are good points.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

It's hard, man. I mean, we're all wired to see difference and if you see difference and other you question it, because it might challenge your worldview and might challenge If your understanding of how people are might challenge it might even bring up some biases we all have right about ourselves or other people so when we're when we're faced with something like that, it's easy to get defensive of our of our viewpoint or what we've been told, right if you've been told something your whole life and then someone prevents presents new information you're gonna get, you're gonna hold on to the baby that is your previous knowledge and go wait a minute, this has worked for me for 40 plus years, what are you talking about?

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I had a, I was gravely wrong and believing that gaming was, you know, something that you sequestered yourself from the world and you lost all your social skills. My, like I said, My other son is he's actually going into cybersecurity, but he would spend, you know, he would get his homework done and spend his hours spent his hours I Dave spent hours, you know, through the night till about one to three in the morning, and gaming. And I said to my ex wife, I go, you know, I'm really worried about Heath and you know, his ability to express himself and his social skills and all that. She said to me, she goes, You should hear him with his buddies, they're laughing they're carrying on. All right, you know what, I had to change my focus on that whole thing. And he does have very good social skills, you know, and, and he's learning all the, you know, the nuances that you could learn from, you know, cognitive, you know, the cognitive skills are the newest cognition and speed of cognition and, you know, visual cues and things like that. It's pretty cool, cool stuff. But there are some concerns, though, with regards to schoolwork. You know, you go from something that's high energy, very captivating to then having to read a chapter in a book. I don't know about you guys, but I would, that would be a complete decline in my, my executive functioning.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

What do you absolutely Hey, me, too. Like, I've even noticed like lately for myself, I've been, you know, I'm building my business. I'm doing a lot of stuff online, I have little projects I'm focusing on and then I get a little bit sucked into the Doom scrolling on social media occasionally. So I'm feeding my brain that and I go to read a book on like, self compassion, right? I can only handle about three pages. And then my brain goes, that was nice. Let's step away.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Maybe we should do that in reverse, you know, read the boring chapter first.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

That that can be kind of like a vicissitudes of life thing over time, maybe we'll eventually see our brains go, Hey, we've had this abundance of tech for the last 20 years, right? If we're still alive, right, if we can live a long life, and then we'll switch back to more offline things. We'll go outside more kind of like a zeitgeist, if you will, of our habits and what we're investing energy into. My suggestion would be there, you know, looking at academics, that's a whole nother podcast episode, I swear, academics man, the way in which school is structured right now, you go to you go to class, right. And this is like a typical grade school experience. You sit in class for an hour, you get like a five minute break, you go to another class in class for an hour, maybe 15 minutes, right. And we talked about, for instance, ADHD, being an attention system that's interest based. If you put an ADHD person in a classroom for an hour, and they're not allowed to move, they're not allowed to fidget. They're not allowed to use their electronics to regulate themselves. They're just asked to sit and listen to a person talk. They're gonna get real, squirmy they might want to talk to their friends. Yeah, they're done. They're done. And doing that successively throughout the day, which is learning, right? They're trying to teach in school, they're trying to instill learning, and then you go home to do homework. You're burnt the hell out. Your executive function is completely taxed. Your brain literally goes, Why are you asking you to burn the candle on both ends? Yeah. And he maybe maybe for us when tech didn't exist, right, as heavy as it is. Now, that was easier for our executive function. Because we weren't as burned out maybe the ways we were taught at a neurological level at an experiential level to pay attention and to learn and whatnot. It was more normalized for our whole nervous system, to be off electronics, and to be attentive to the the sensory aspects of the teaching environment and that, you know, the teacher and the pen and paper and learning. So I think it's a little bit of nature and nurture. I do think we're seeing more autistic and ADHD folks just in general, because, I mean, that's just how society works. You know, these are brain types. People have these brains, right? Some people go their whole lives undiagnosed or unrecognized. So we're just starting to see more of these needs for executive function accommodations right happening in the academic level because of the propagation of people. There are more and more people we have each year on this planet. So and by the way, this is a really important message, I think in this whole space is executive function needs our human needs. I don't care if you're ADHD or not, you all, we all have different executive functions in our brain. And some of us are better than others at utilizing them. And some of us can get anxious or stressed or burnt out, even if we're not neurodivergent. And our executive function just ain't there. So the more we can recognize these needs, and accommodate just human beings in the academic and workspaces for these things, the better everyone's quality of life is going to be.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Don't know if you have kids or not, but if you if you do, or if you're advising a parent that their kid is getting involved in gaming, how would How would you introduce them into that world? And how would you put restrictions on time? Would you give me a protocol for those who are curious?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

No kids, but my wife works with animals for a living. So lots of Furbabies and a lot of good clients, a lot of good clients. And a lot of parents support I've offered and I it's actually a huge need right now in my practice is giving parents these tools and resources, especially like Dr. T was asking for. Hold on trying to remember your question working memory. See, there it is. Just a question is how do I have

Dr. Spencer Baron:

if a kid was getting involved, you know, or you're, you're the parent or you want to introduce the kid to it, and in a certain way, I mean, I know people that are completely restricted above him until a certain age, you know, so what would be a protocol for you?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

You know, let the kid explore games understand what game ratings mean. So what is it in E for Everyone versus teen or mature game, what's involved in that, understand how the game is played, whether it's with strangers online, just friends solo against the computer. And then really, I would say, if parents aren't involved at the actual playing level, is just play the game with your kid, I don't even care if it's once but like, get that actual experience. So you can know what's going on in their mind, you can see what they're having to do in the game to succeed, you can see what they struggle with in the game. Games offer quite a bit in terms of regulation and connection. But there's also a lot of metaphors to write. I remember reading this book about a is a psychologist who was reflecting on his history of video games and just gaming and how it's accepted in American culture and how it's evolved. And he was talking about how he kept replaying this one level and losing in the same way. And he was just kind of like going through the ropes and maybe almost associating a little bit with the game. And there was a real life parallel, where he was very much stuck. And he was kind of just sticking to his old habits there and not trying to be flexible. So the game became kind of a window into his mind, and his habits in that moment. Interesting.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I'm sure you can leverage some, you know, real breakthroughs, if you're aware of how that's working for you or not. That's a wow, it's pretty cool idea.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Journal, meditate, do stuff that improves self monitoring, right? Talk to other people about how you're thinking or feeling these are ways to harness self monitoring and improvement and self monitoring as you might guess, is another executive function

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Yeah, I got some work to do Yeah, I do fight so what's what's your thoughts on the we're a lot of the game is going from A to the platform looking at the computers to the 3d platform or VR.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah, man, I mean, I haven't touched VR personally, for my own gaming stuff. I play games almost every day, by the way. So I am very much involved in video games like personally to in my life, I have not touched the 3d stuff like the Oculus or whatnot. I've read a few different papers and posts and such from colleagues online who use that stuff in therapy and who've used it for their own leisure. I think it's just like any other form of media, right? People are going to be a little skeptical about is this healthy or not? It's kind of like when games first came out. There's kind of this like real concerned culture about is this healthy is as good as as bad. So I think we're kind of still in the initial stages of just being curious and possibly skeptical about its application and use. I can't see it being much different than just traditional gaming. at a 2d level though. I think it's still engaging in some kind of game right in cyberspace. I imagine there's different neuron activation when you're seeing something 3d And you know, proprioception when you move your body. Right. proprioception, announced that one. I knew what you were talking about. Yeah, it's good. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, guys.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Yeah, we all know I trust chemo

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah. Well, thank you, you're very you're very affirming, you're very validating doctrine. But that's That's it, man. I mean, like, it's probably different neuron activation. But really, at the end of the day, it's just gaming still. And accessibility wise can help people who have who are disabled and can't use their hands or arms very well. Or their legs, right. And probably a lot of therapeutic utility with interaction right there. I know some people who've done exposures for people who have phobias, right, they'll use VR to actually expose them to the stimulus that they're afraid of to help their nervous system desensitize. So I imagine there could even be some exposure level if you start incorporating games that help people address things. So

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I'll get asked a lot of questions. And I think Dr. Spencer brought up this to a point where when when kids want to start getting into games, is there a an age due to brain development that is too early, or is a better time, you know, you'll see, parents go, he's not getting the cell phone until eighth grade or seventh grade yet. Sometimes I'll come back and go, that's how kids communicate. Now it's your it's your your, your out actually telling that kid he can't have his these friends. But again, with algorithms out there, they create these they get into the brain early. So what's your thoughts on that?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

It's really hard to say I don't think there's a right answer. But I do know that what you're describing is the fear, right? Fear that somehow technology is going to negatively influence my child's development. I even tell you this, like, you know, my father in law, one time, we were at a Korean barbecue place. And he was he was telling us a good old story about how he saw a, I think it was maybe a two year old or a one year old on an iPad. And he was just ignoring his and on the iPad, and you took the iPad away, he got frustrated, right? And his concerns were these darn kids, right. And they're getting addicted to technology. And if you replace that stimulus with anything that kid enjoys, you might have a similar response, right of like, I'm frustrated, Give me that thing back. The technology itself is just so varied and exciting that a lot of things just don't compete with it. So you remember the newspaper? Right? We still got it. But I know you remember to. You can read Washington Post or New York Times or whatever the hell you want on the internet instantly at any place at any time in your life now, right? That is way more accessible. It's also paper entry friendly, maybe not environment with the electricity, but like it's tree friendly. Is that a morally better or worse option? Is that a more damaging to the brain option than a newspaper? I don't think so. But I do think behind parents fear of the technology influencing their kids negatively, is maybe their own fear about their own use in their life. So if I was a parent, and I thought, this this social media sucks, man, I'm addicted to this phone. This isn't a phone, by the way. It's a computer that can call people, I'm addicted to this phone. And it scares me how much time it takes. And I think it's damaging to my brain, right? You know, it's like, I'm standing next to a microwave. Whenever I'm on this, this phone for two hours. I'm going to transfer that to my kid, right? I'm going to think, oh, this my kids going to be, you know, neglected in some ways, if they're on the iPad all the time, or at the you know, big game too long is gonna be damaging to them, or do you really terrible things to their physiology and their mind? That's oversimplifying, right? Because you're not in that fear. I don't hear about any of the other experiences this kid's having. Is the kid talking to other people on their iPad? are they solving problems they can transfer to real life skills? Are they are they exploring their interests, I have kids who refuse to go to school in therapy. And I learned Oh, I've been learning how the stock market works and how it works and how to do day trading. Outside of school, I'm like, Oh, so you're learning quite a bit. You're just not going to school. Right? So it's how the technology is being used? What are the needs being met? Right? These are the things I think parents need to invest more time in when they think about giving their kids a phone or an electronic device. And I think you know, any any decision made out of fear because there's no space

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I love that and and for all those fathers out there, I'm gonna throw myself under the bus one more time because you know, I don't I don't mind I'd rather learn than then care so yeah, I'm gonna throw myself into both because out of my mouth, but I've also heard the other followers mouth but I'm just gonna call it my mouth that I'll compare whether it's a phone the game took a crack pipe, and I go and and I'll say your there'll be outside playing and and they have to run back to the condo they play their game when you'll be outside and you're joined some as a Family, and the kid just keeps. It's been an hour, I have to run back. And I'm like, Oh, you ran back to your crack bite? Yeah. So So and I'm not dealing with his her that but yes, that has come out my mouth. And so how do we, you look at that and they get jittery if they're out at the beach or out in the mountains or hiking or riding a bike, and they get jittery, and they want to run back. And I'm like, especially if you're on vacation, you're like, Well, you can do that anywhere. But you're only going to see this castle once, you're only gonna see that, and it may not be interesting to them. So, so how you've heard that before, I'm sure in therapy, how does how do you bridge that gap?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yep, I explore, for instance, in the environment, like, let's take the beach for an example, as a context I explore what is it? What are their needs in that situation? And why would gaming or going back to home to the electronic be the ideal choice for them and their brains, right? Could be sensory aspects of the beach are overwhelming, they could hate the feeling of sand, they could think the lights too bright, and they've never worn a hat or sunglasses in their life. Right? Because because sometimes we're not aware of our needs, we're really just not in tune with our bodies. Sometimes. We're not aware of, you know, the control we have or the things we can do to accommodate ourselves. I think about you know, people in general, some people don't like to be around a lot of people, they prefer a smaller space. And if you're on like a super crowded beach, you know, that can just feel it can feel just regulating to your nervous system. I also think about change in environment in transition. That's a huge difficulty for a lot of neurodivergent. Folks, it's my brain is fixated on this thing. And to rip it away from me, it almost feels intrusive, I need time to prepare for this transition. So going to the beach isn't just going to the beach, it's stopping what I'm doing getting up out of my chair, going downstairs, putting on my jacket, or finding the jacket if you don't put it in the same place every day, right? Finding my shoes, putting on the shoes, getting in the car, driving, being in the car with whoever it is, what are we going to talk about, you know, sometimes there's a level of unpredictability that I think people want people want to fulfill the need for consistency. That's why you see a lot of people get into routines, especially ADHD and autistic folks. So yeah, going to the beach isn't just going to the beach. for them. It's a lot of different needs that need to be assessed in sort of underlying dug up so that we can say, Okay, what would make it easier for you to go to the beach? What if you had your phone with you sunglasses, a hat, you know, shoes that make it so sand doesn't get in your shoes? And then a nice spot on the beach? That isn't as loud? Right? Would that make it easier for you to be present for each perfect?

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah. Well, Joe, I'll tell you, we are entering this phase of our program that we call rapid fire questions. It's going to require you to put your gaming executive function speed skills on I'm going to ask you five different questions. And you know, brevity is brilliant. If you could answer in short term that would be great.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah, I'll try manner. Yeah. That's an executive action. That's self monitoring.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

It's good. Yeah. All right. Question number one. If you're ready. Are you ready? Dr. John? I'm ready. All right. This cognitive tip that you give on a daily basis for your clients that everyone should hear repetitively.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Find ways to be present and have compassion for yourself. That's fantastic.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

It was great. You know, some of our prolific or some of our prolific guests seem to be tapped into that being present thing and I commend you on that. That's great. Thank you. Question number two best way that you have found to exercise your brain away from the screen

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

meditation reading and exercise

Dr. Spencer Baron:

question number three. That is fantastic. Question number three what's the one thing people would be surprised to learn about you?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

I love anime and video games even though I also love basketball and weightlifting. Very good. Well, maybe not if you

Dr. Terry Weyman:

really. Basketball and game are just trying to do that

Dr. Spencer Baron:

the passion right there.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

If you watch Paul George's podcast He's talking about playing NBA 2k episodes. So I mean a lot of these athletes play. I mean how there's a former football player who opened a Magic the Gathering pokemons trading card store in 1000. Oaks for crying out loud,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

like, awesome. We're everywhere man. It's great. I thought the answer to the question was for people to pronounce your last name you know, for the listening audience we've been avoiding saying his last name because it is such a tongue twister was it was insky Was it? St. John?

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Yes. How John never even attempted your last name. I just call you John.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

You might be okay. Here. You might be surprised here. This is the real answer. Your question is that I usually just go by avoid that.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I'm sure. I'm sure growing up you've heard it botched up but 1000s

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Or people I got I got substitute teacher trauma man. Yo, I got substitute teacher trauma. Alright, John, stop. Right here, man. Just don't

Dr. Terry Weyman:

you had me at hello?

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah. It's great. All right, question number four. If you could go back in time and meet someone? Who would it be? And why?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Damn, I don't know. Tick, not Han. Learn more about his journey. You know, coming to America teaching mindfulness, how he developed his personal philosophy haven't really read his biographies and such and he passed away recently, in the last few years, but um, amazing practitioner of mindfulness and just really good messages for single. Tick, not Han.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Okay, let's see what it looks like. His

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

name is spelled Fitch not hand interesting. But tick, not Han. Alright.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

And the other thing to my read,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

like that mindfulness is

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

listed. I'm sure there's more good the first one that came to my mind.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

But His thing was mindfulness.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Yeah, how mindfulness can be practiced in America, right in a very simple and accessible way making making mindfulness and being present a very useful and practical strategy for living. I love in his book, I think it's a miracle of mindfulness. He has an example of his friend who is he's an author, and he's writing a book, and he's eating like a tangerine or an orange. And then he asked his friend, are you eating the orange? Or are you eating the book?

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Interesting. Interesting.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Go to the movies. Are you eating popcorn? Movie movie? Right.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

All right.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Grasshopper, the last five questions, literally. And what is the one thing you wish you had learned earlier in your career?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Hmm. All right. Well, this is a whole nother can of worms, but I'll keep it short. What ableism is, right, what ableism is how to look at? You're asking what is ableism ableism. The idea that there is a specific way of thinking acting and existing, that is the norm, or acceptable. So ableism says that if you're not doing something in a way that an able bodied person would, or a person whose brain is not ADHD, or autistic, or OCD, or any of these other brain types, right? If you're not acting or thinking or existing in these ways that something is wrong with you.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I like that.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

That's where a lot of the stigma comes from. Right? And the fear, it's like, I haven't been told this is normal, like what's going on? Like, what's the what's the disorder?

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I like that. You know, John, this has been fantastic. And thank you for not only answering my own stuff, but for all the other dads that may not have the guts to ask the questions or go there, but have the same stuff in their heads. So I appreciate your candidness and I appreciate your answers. Because it's all about relationships and creating better ones and trying to be better at what we do. And that's a lot of this this show is trying to help people be healthier mentally physically and nutritionally so thank you for that. To close we're gonna close but to close the floor is yours. What message do you want to leave under listeners here? When it comes to all the stuff that you deal with?

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

them what's it what's a wrap up statement? I guess? Adopt a curiosity mindset if you notice, like judgment or fear around something or someone or an activity right in this case gaming or anything, right anything people may do in their lives that other people might be afraid of or or think is just odd or bizarre. or just, I don't know, not normal, quote unquote, approach it with a curiosity mindset, you know, ask yourself like what needs is this person have that this behavior, this way of communicating and connecting gets their needs met? What how are these people arriving at these conclusions that this is the behavior that is useful for them. And trust people's autonomy to like, believe that people can make informed decisions for themselves. Sometimes they might need a little bit more support or resources, but we always do the best we can with the knowledge and skills we have. And if someone is struggling or having a hard time diversifying or balancing their life, try to get them support. And like you said, Doctor to try to help them get healthier connections.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

You know, on that note, we're going if this sparks any thoughts for our listeners, we'll put a way to contact you through in your in the description of the show. And for those that do have questions that need answers, and want to make the change in their household. Please look up Dr. John and and, and maybe he can help you bridge those gaps. So we appreciate your time, buddy. And thanks for coming on our show.

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

Likewise, super fun, super awesome experience. Great to chat with you all.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

David,

Dr. Jon Fledzinskas:

no problem being the tech guy. And a gamer nerd like me. Great.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Thanks, John. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The cracking backs podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at cracking backs podcast. catch new episodes every Monday. See you next time.