The Crackin' Backs Podcast

Fight, flight or Freeze- with Barbara Donovan

• Dr. Terry Weyman and Dr. Spencer Baron

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Welcome to another transformative episode of the Crackin' Backs Podcast! This week, we're thrilled to have Psychotherapist, Barbara Donovan, an expert in mental health with over two decades of experience. Barbara specializes in trauma, anxiety, and depression, utilizing a range of therapeutic techniques including Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), Play Therapy, and Trauma-Focused CBT.

In today’s landscape, where fears and complex family dynamics are ever-present, understanding trauma is more crucial than ever. Many of us perceive trauma as a purely psychological issue, but Barbara delves into how these traumatic experiences also manifest physically in our bodies. She explains how recognizing these physical signs can be a pivotal step in the healing process.

Moreover, in an age where people often listen to respond rather than to learn, Barbara shares practical strategies to cultivate deeper, more empathetic listening skills. She also offers invaluable advice on defusing toxic conversations, a skill essential in both personal and professional settings. From chronic stress and its profound impact on our mind and body to effective techniques for managing it, Barbara covers it all.

We also explore how our past experiences, especially those from childhood, shape our current mental and physical health. Barbara provides actionable steps to address and heal from these early imprints, enabling us to let go, learn, and move on.

Join us for a powerful conversation that not only highlights the psychological aspects of trauma but also its physical manifestations and the holistic steps we can take towards healing. This episode is packed with insights and practical advice that you won’t want to miss!

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We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.

Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Welcome to the cracking backs Podcast. Today we truly have an enlightening episode with psychotherapist Barbara Donovan, in a world riddled with fears, uncertainty and poor communication. Trauma isn't just psychological, it manifests in our physical in our bodies, Barbara will unravel these physical signs and how they aid in healing. Plus, we'll dive into cultivating deeper, more empathetic listening skills in an age where many Listen, just to respond not to understand, discover practical steps to defuse toxic conversations and explore the profound impact of chronic stress on our mind and body. Join us as we uncover how childhood experiences shape our current health, and learn powerful strategies that allows us to move forward, don't miss this transformative conversation.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I am so excited to have Barbara Donavan. Because the subject today we're going to talk about is kind of like from a book, The Body Keeps the Score. And it's kind of like trauma, because there's no sponsors, no toxic conversations going on at all out there right now.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I think that's all there is.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

So welcome to the show. Barbara, we're excited to dive into these great topics.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Thank you very much. I'm excited to be here. See,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

many people Yeah, especially nowadays, I mean, kind of this toxicities is crazy. And a lot of people don't know how to handle it. And so many people understand trauma, when they hear it when they hear the word trauma, they think it's a psychological issue. And they don't realize how it manifests physically. And, you know, they'll just mention I will deal with people and they're like, I did nothing and it just woke up. And you start asking them questions about well, do you have any stress? Well, of course I do. But what does that do with my neck? You know? And so how can we recognize these physical signs in the healing process? And what's your approach to it?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Well, I was trained in Argentina to be a psychologist, and then I came here in 99. And I did a Master's in Counseling Psychology. And for the longest time, I've been doing CBT. So very psyche oriented, staying very much in the psychological aspect of things. And a few years later, I came across this book, the body keeps score. And I found it fascinating. And it has opened a whole new arena for me, because now I'm starting to understand more the human being as mind, body and brain, and that they're all connected. And as as I used to think like okay, you know, here that's a medical problem, or that's a psychological problem, or that's a neurological problem. And now, this book, by Dr. Vessel, Bender, God has taught me that trauma impacts your mind, your brain, and your body. Trauma leaves an imprint, in your mind, in your brain and in your body of intense emotions, intense images, intense thoughts, and intense sensations in your body. And then you have to live in it. So I guess that's where you guys come in.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

How do you how do you define for the listeners that difference between the mind and the brain?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

The mind would be more I guess, like the psychological like your thoughts. Whereas the brain are the skills like attention concentration. Learning, whereas I guess the mind is really the cognitive part of well, I guess the psychological, not the cognitive, the psychological part of it the way how I see myself how I how I assess things, you know, experiences. But I'm no expert. Please don't quote me on that.

Unknown:

Maybe I'm saying

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I asked your opinion. So

Unknown:

before? Yes, it's a very opinion. Before

Dr. Terry Weyman:

we go back, you so you're born in Argentina. What started this whole process of getting interested in all this? And

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

psychology? Yeah. I always wanted to help people. That's what really drove me to it. I had never taken a class in psychology in high school, but I knew from a very early age that I will I need to be a therapist to help people. That's really what moved me. I've always been fascinated by human interactions, the mystery of human being.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

And then what brought you to me? Was the the study of Argentina different than the United States? What What brought you out here?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Yes, it's very different. In Argentina, I did five years of school of psychology. And here I did a master's. And sadly, you know, the Masters was very little, like a sample of what I studied in Argentina, and I got a lesser degree than I deserve, but it's okay. It allows me to do what I love, and I'm happy for that. But then here, it was more a practice oriented, and I love that about this country was very necessary for me to do that, to understand how the culture here is. And so in that sense, it was very helpful to do the masters here. So

Dr. Terry Weyman:

when you when you came here, you obviously your different language, and, and different culture and all that. So you really had to learn to observe, listen, to understand how cultures work, and how people think and all that kind of stuff. And I think that's a lost art. Now people no longer listen to learn, they listen to respond, and how are you using the skills you gain from going to another country, another language, another culture, to help individuals because you really think about it. Our world, especially United States is being divided. And you can always look at the vision as a different cultures. So how do you learn how to talk to people, and get them to communicate? And listen to learn at a deeper level?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

You know, that's a very interesting question. And for the longest time, I was one to listen, thinking of my response. And I had to train myself and by observing certain person, and I would say, My husband is one of them, who takes forever to give you an answer. But I found the value in it. Because then you learn to really listen, I think that, and I'm going to use a little bit of what I learned in the body keeps a score is when their arguments, people go into fight or flight or freeze, they go into this fight or flight or freeze biologically, psychologically. And, and therefore, you're really not thinking through nor listening to what the person is saying. You're just responding because that's it the fight or flight, or freeze is a response. And when you're in that state, your cognitive, your frontal lobe is closed, and therefore you cannot really make any assessments evaluations, or, you know, or plans to respond strategically. You're just responding. Therefore, no one's understanding each other. And there's also somewhere I learned, I learned in some of the trainings I've taken that when you're in fight or flight or freeze, your your hearing shuts down. So you're really not listening.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

So on that same, that same subject, how when, when people are in that, that fight state of mind, and they become very, the conversation becomes very toxic. How would you suggest people diffuse that? Or? Well, there's two stages, prevent that, from getting to that that level? And once they're in that level? I mean, they go some people just go blind, and then it just escalates from there. Do you have any suggestions or, you know, some cool constructive dialogue that people can use maybe to speak to themselves or communicate with the other person?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Well, what I'm learning is that the way to calm your brain down to get out of that fight or flight or freeze state is is called the bottom of approach and is using the body itself to calm down. So using our deep breathing, using your senses, and also using progressive muscle relaxation are the techniques that I usually I learned and that I recommend to use to come down. Once you you're calm, then you can your brain opens up your cognitive part opens up And then you can start thinking rationally again. And maybe question like, What did he mean? Is it really this way is how do I want to answer to this? So but for as long as I am in fight or flight or freeze, I'm going to respond, and I'm not going to think the other thing is that I forgot to say

Dr. Spencer Baron:

that's fine. You know, I, you know, somebody who's who's seeing that a, let's take two people, you know, one, one is the perpetrator of the conversation and starting to get nasty, and the other one is a is the victim who's a little more mild mannered. Do you have a suggestion of what somebody can say, to calm that person down and say, you know, hold on a moment, you know, do you mean, or do you have any suggestions for when that happens? Because I I hear and see this happen often with others. So any thoughts there? Yes.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

And I can't take credit for this, because this is something that I learned in training, these amazing therapist, her name is Lisa, Lisa Saldana. She's amazing. And she was saying that, that the higher someone goes, the softer you go. So the more someone escalates, softer, you stay the calmer you stay, you know, and that will help keep level.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

That's easy. That's easy enough. Yes,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

yes. Easier said than done? Yeah. Yes.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

And I was going to say, I know what I forgot to say before is that. Oh, my God, I forgot again.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

We'll give you another chance in just a moment.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I have a question. So what's your you get guys, and like Spencer was talking about guys will escalate? Because they got testosterone, and they want to win the conversation. And then you have two women yelling, and when two women are toxic, it's a totally different conversation than when two men are toxic. How would you handle the two genders? If you're talking to a female, and she's having trouble with with a spouse or a sister or Fred versus a man?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Well, I won't deny that I may go into freeze. In the beginning. I have I've had couples here that come to literally fight with each other. And I'm like, Oh, my God. How do I handle this because an eye freeze, eventually, like none of us can have that response. But that's what I meant to be saying. The more awareness that you have about you going into fight or flight or freeze, the more chances you have to control it, to get out of it, to know what to do next. For as long as you're in fight off lease. You're and you're not aware of it, you're going to be run by it. But the moment that you become aware you can handle a situation differently, because then you have options. So to respond your answer, I think that there's no difference between men and women, they're both in fight or flight. Whoever is in an argument. It could be children, a child having a temper tantrum, he's in fight or flight or freeze. Definitely a fight. You know,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

you find men men, why go more physical and women? Why would go more psychological? Or is that? Is that myth?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

I want to know what how to answer that. Because in this day and age, if you look at videos, you see everything you see women fighting, that's fair. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

We would like to thank Guardian grains for sponsoring the crackenback podcast. These ancient grains are made to keep your gut happy and healthy. Check the description below for a link to their many food products. Now when when you have a child when you're talking to maybe a child that started to lose it, lose their 10 I don't know if you've had that experience with any of your client patients. And the times that were the kid loses his temper. And the parent is there. What do you do?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

I calmed down. I don't know if I told you when we met Dr. Byron that I had this one experience where I have a first meeting with a child. He was an eight year old with his mom. And the moment I opened the door and I said hi I'm Barbara I'm going to be doing your your intake you know we're going to do I'm going to be asking some questions. And the boy looks at his mom and he's like what what questions you said we're coming here to meet her. I met her Let's go home. I'm done. And so the mommy's that way, come on in, listen to her, you know, let's just let's get to meet her. So, long story short, the boys spent most of the session under the chair, saying, I want to go home, I want to go home, I want to go home, the mom is feeling like, Oh my God, you're embarrassing me. You're being rude. You know, to Barbara. That's not how we answered that, that that and I, knowing what I know. Now, all I keep thinking is this kid feels like an a trapped animal. And I kept saying to the man, he's doing fine. He is, you know, he feels like a trapped animal. This is not what he expected. We need to reschedule and the man kept pushing to, to do the intake. But I knew exactly what was happening. And I stayed very calm. And I said, I know how you feel I validated these feelings. So we were unable to, you know, to conclude the interview. And I didn't hear from them for maybe a month or two. And then the mom calls me back and says that they bowling requested to come back. He wanted to do therapy with me. So they come back. And this time I don't I just went into play therapy. And I just play with him. We had a great time. And as we're leaving, he's like, whatever the questions you are going to ask me. So he felt safe. Once you feel safe, that fight or flight goes away? I don't know if that answers your question.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah, because it does. What? When you say play? What are you actually doing? Because you told me about this. And I would love for you to mention what you actually do when you're in therapy.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

It depends on the situation. But in this case, we're just playing a very non invasive, simple get card games, I think it was goldfish. Like as in order to bond I make it very non threat threatened now or you no threatening? Yeah. So but as as I as I get deeper, I have lots of therapeutic games, so summer, our games, traditional games, but they come with a set of like therapeutic questions to, you know, do some processing identify feelings, you know, I always I also teach the kids a lot about the fight or flight or freeze, I showed them some videos that are on YouTube. And it's very good for them to understand this because it normalizes their experience and for the parents also normalizes the experience. You know, what, all of a sudden, and I don't have a spoiled child, all of a sudden, my child is going into fight or flight, he feels threatened. This is normal, all of our brains are constantly scanning for potential threats. The first the first function of the brain is to keep the body safe.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

What video, would you be showing a child that he could relate to? What would that what would that be? There's

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

there's videos, I actually looked type on YouTube fight or flight or freeze for kids. And you get your, your, your your list, and I'm using one that I love. And the kids engage really well, that it's I think it's British based on the accent. But it's really cool. And then there's two parts, one that explains the fight or flight or freeze. But then and then I use a second one that explains how, if you're in your Android call, it calls it the downstairs brain, which is the limbic, you know, if you're in your dancer's brain, then your sensible brain shuts down. And so the brain is very smart in this way as it teaches the kids like that kind of language, then decides which part of the brain is going to be active and where the energy is going to go. So if you're in danger, your dancers brain is going to get all the energy, whereas if you're calm, you're going to use the upstairs brain or the sensible brain how they call it.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

That's fantastic. That's great. chronics thanks for sharing that story, by the way, because you had mentioned some of that, and I thought it was absolutely fantastic.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Thank you.

Unknown:

Let's,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

let's talk about chronic stress. People are under a lot of stress, you know, whether it's the economy or or just the, you know, maybe a certain generation is not used to dealing with stress so they are so much more encumbered by it. Can you explain how prolonged stress affects the mind and body and maybe provide some strategies or techniques that you might use or suggested Get rid of these, these challenges.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Yes, I think prolonged stress, what it does is keep you hyper alert. When you're hyper alert, then you're already in fight or flight or freeze. And we're fight or flight or freeze again, your sensible brain is shut down. And therefore you're not using your problem solving skills, your assessment, your evaluation, and therefore, your responses are going to be more instinctive, more impulsive, more emotional, which, in the end, prolonged stress? I don't know if that answers. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Right, what would you what would you tell someone, or that they could do at home, that might be more therapeutic?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

That what I'm learning in this field, and again, I am very, very new at this. But it does make sense is to go from the body up. So using our bodies to calm the brain down, and it works to activate the parasympathetic system, which, you know, counter effects the fight or flight fight or freeze response,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

would you suggest someone go exercise or do meditation, because, yes, more active and

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

involved both. But to come down, you really, if Think, think of a simple as your breathing, your breathing is part of, you know, it's automatic, but at the same time, we have some control. So it's a good bridge between the body and the brain, you cannot access your limbic brain, from the top of, you know, from that sense of when you can not tell yourself like, okay, stop being stressed, no more anxiety enough. It doesn't work that way, in the same way that when you tell people like calm down, people don't calm down, there is anything you activate, the more. So how do you access this part of your brain, you know, you access the limbic system through the body because it is connected to the body. So you use breathing, you can use control breathing. And that also gives you a sense of control. What is what is that sets us into fight or flight or freeze is the helplessness of not being able to resolve a situation or a problem, you know, or a threat. So if you're feeling helpless, you know, you can use the breathing because that's something you can do. And as long as there's something you can do about a situation, you're not helpless anymore. Right.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I'd like to point out something very obvious that that I think is worth mentioning. I don't know about you dexterity but I've always only heard fight or flight. Yeah, I've

Dr. Terry Weyman:

never heard the freeze part. Yeah, I've

Dr. Spencer Baron:

never edit and I've seen your thinking Freeze. Freeze you there's that's Barbara, you're the first one I've ever heard that. And it really is a segment of emotion that nobody recognize. But it's true. I mean, it's totally true. Yeah, I think you freeze more than anything else, you know? Yes. So she's mentioned it several times ago. I gotta say something about that, because I've never heard the freeze the freeze part.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

No, never have.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

But I believe that much. But that happens much more than either the two or maybe that's like the first part you freeze. And then you either decide to run or fight.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

And Barbara law time, even, you know, I can attest my own life is sometimes when you get so angry, or there is a toxic situation, and you do freeze, you have this, it's hard to get out of it, you know, so you can go into that parasympathetic system or you can go to that breathing. And as guys sometimes we get locked into the fight, you know, those horns lock and we just stay in and and you don't want to be the first one to quit, you know, you want to just stay into it. What is some, when you're in that free state, how do you thaw How do you

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

like for the you again, you use your somatic resources, what do you do in that case? For example, if that psychological part of of freezing is dissociation numbing yourself, you see those people that feel nothing that that that are very flat, you know, very, very withdrawn. So you know, inactive. So how do you how do you you need energy brought into the body? So for example, if you were to Use breathing, you focus on the inhale. So you bring the energy in, like that. Versus when you're like up here with hyper arousal, meaning extremely anxious or extremely anger, you focus on exhaling, so you let that energy out of your body. Then another thing you can do, for example, is changing your posture. Sometimes you're slouch when you're down when you're numb when you're freezing, you know, so you just stretch your pants spine, and the changes. Another simple thing you can do is smile. And that changes. Another thing you can do is just get up and walk. Another thing you can do is just press down with your feet against the ground.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I always found the chair. Yeah, I always figured the physical act of just hanging up on Spencer worked for me yeah. That's a good physical act, just let you know we have cell phones. Now that push the button is not as it's not as satisfying as factories slam. I like to I like to sit not the posture, open up the airway, changing your perspective, I've always found going for a walk was a good way to calm down. Those, those are great. And I love that analogy Spence about that breathe in and breathe out for different reasons. I like love that

Dr. Spencer Baron:

we've had, we've had guests on that, that teach breathing techniques. And yet Barbara is the first. That's the first time I've heard someone say, breathe in. When you're when you're when you're down, and then breathe, you know, breathe out if you're aroused, or never separated the two into that category. That's fantastic.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Well, I'm doing this training. And I learned this like, last week, literally. So I thought it was super cool.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

It is very, that's great. That's good stuff. And you're constantly learning. So that's part of it, too. Yeah, we never stopped learning. Especially with new generations coming out, you know, each generation, I'm sure you have to navigate that approach differently. Yeah, it's,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

you know, even my kids last night, similar stuff. They're saying, I'm like, Oh, my God, my parents would roll over in their grave if they heard that. And, and my wife had like me, because well, this is the this, this is their generation, we have to learn their language. Yeah, not the other way around. And I thought that was really appropriate. Because I remember when I was a kid, I'd say stuff. And my dad was from World War Two. And he would look at me like I was some Beatles hippie, you know. So I think every generation has to understand the language that the new generation is going through. It's the other way around.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Yes, yes. We have time. times. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

The classic example of that happened a couple years ago, my mom, myself and my two boys were at lunch. And what my mom says something and one of my boys goes Come on, bro. A bra b r u h. And my mother turns Why are you calling me a bra? You know, like a breezier like a? And I got oh my gosh, no, she said bra like anyone? Well, what's a bra? You know? Just the interaction between the two generations, it was hilarious. But it's

Dr. Terry Weyman:

the other thing I see is knowledge generation. But geography because, you know, something said on the East Coast is different, like New York is different than California, which is different than Texas, which is different than the Midwest. And I think a lot of people, especially the last couple years moving all over the place. They don't realize the cultural differences of the states and the geography and what is offensive and when airy is accepted in other areas. So I think people need to take a step back and learn the culture before they open their mouth.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

True, you have to be mindful. And at the same time, I think everything's very global.

Unknown:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Like, for example, my sister lives in Spain. And one day she tells me that her 15 year old son tells her that she's a Karen. And that's a very joke that my kids say and it's a very American joke, and I'm like, How does he know about that? Do you even know what a Karen means? I go to my sister, and she had no idea it was even

Dr. Spencer Baron:

my girlfriend's name is Karen, I had to completely change my consciousness. Every time I say her name, I almost want to call her by her last name, you know? Oh, gosh. Barbara, I want to ask you about, you know, there was a point before chiropractic before he became a chiropractor, they wanted to do psychology, but it back then it was just, you know, somebody laying on a table, and you would just say, Alright, tell me how it all started. And I just couldn't imagine just, I would probably fall asleep talking to them, but it was traditional to have talk therapy, you know, they would just focus you know, basically on, you know, the emotional their emotions and you know, their life history and things. Is it different now? Do you approach? Someone's, you know, when they first come in, is it? How much different or is it the same?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

No, definitely, you still do a lot of talk therapy, lots of like, language is very important. Being able to put whatever's going on with you into words is the way that you communicate communication is really important here. And, and that's how you also transmit sometimes you change, you know, and the view is through through words. Like, that's very important, but there are certain aspects that are pre language, like, trauma is pre language. So talk therapy not always works with with trauma. So in the book, The Body Keeps a score. Dr. Vander Kolk is very against talk therapy for trauma. And instead he proposes different kinds of therapies, one of them being yoga EMDR neurofeedback, so, you know, mindfulness, so he proposes different, different ways to do but that's just for trauma. But then again, so much is trauma.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah, no, yeah. So, the, nowadays with virtual reality and the way we had a guest on a while back that has a program that takes people with phobias, and, you know, past traumas, and they use virtual reality, to create the experience again, and, and, and get them through it, but not knowing that they're in a safe place, yet they're experiencing with, you know, maybe it's fear of a spider. So it's, you know, very small, very pixelated and all sudden, you know, as they go along, you know, they blow it up and make it bigger. Any any thoughts about do you use

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

gradual exposure to what they're saying? I don't know, to be honest with you is like, whatever fit, whatever works, works, you have to try because there's no one fits all. You know, like, again, human beings have very, very complex, and every story is unique, and every person is unique. So you need to work with that particular story with the particular resources that that person brings with the temperament and their circumstances that they went through. So it's very complex.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

So when someone's talking to you, and you notice their physiology changes. And you're obviously aware of that because the body aches louder than the words themselves. What do you tell them? Or how what? What would be your next approach if someone's expressed that they're talking but they're more expressive with their physiology? Do you have them change their physiology or they are you recognize you have

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

to have them like this is the new thing is like, is this is exactly have them become aware of how they start to shut down. For example, I had a 12 year old couple of weeks ago, and her mom was telling me everything that was wrong with this girl. She was wearing a big hoodie. You know how kids use like hoodies now, so she pulled on the hood. Then she she, like stretch the neck up to her eyes. She put her legs under the whole hood. And so she was like a mountain, all hidden there shutting down. She didn't want to be there anymore. evident. She didn't want to hear it. So what I did is, I have this ball here, this beach ball and I start tossing the ball with her and she engages and he's and gets completely out of that. Freeze. Wow, you know,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

do you do you ever tell the mother to shut up for a minute.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

I did not like that. But I said like, I don't know if you realize that when you expose her, she started to shut down because she doesn't want to hear it. I think it would be better that if anything, you have to say, tell it to me privately. And don't include her during that, because that's not helpful.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

It's it's absolutely fascinating. Terry, and you probably have had patients, you know, who are a parent will bring in their kid. And I was I was actually I think I mentioned this to Barbara, and this was started this whole conversation about this is we had a loving mother bringing her athletic, very athletic, baseball player, son. And so this is like the third injury this year. He's very accident prone, isn't it? She called them the injury. He's an injury kid. Now, he's a teenager, and I'm thinking, this kid's gonna take that, right? This kid's gonna take this label on to the rest of his life. And he's gonna be injured all the time and everything. So I didn't say anything. But when we started examining, we realized, and Dr. Terry does sports injuries as well. So he understands biomechanics. You know, we had, he had three injuries. And they were all tied in as once caused the other a year later, and it causes the other one two years later. And I said, He is not an injury kid. Nobody fixed the first problem correctly. And so, you know, the labels are, are devastating. And parents mean will, right? Do you? Yes. Do you say to the parent, do you bring your right? Do you take the power off to the side? Yes.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Are you have separate sessions with them? You know, to a new address these things and for example, with with some parents, I'll say like, listen, the sometimes parents also want you to be a miracle worker, you know, and they're like, I don't see any results yet. And I think like, oh, yeah, because you know what I'm pouring here, but you're drilling down the bottom of the

Dr. Terry Weyman:

good analogy.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

analogy. So it's yes, you have to understand the kid in the context of his family or her family. And I do say to parents, that sometimes they need to change this and that and try to understand, I think that understanding your children as in fight or flight or freeze, to me is a big breakthrough. Because then you will see your child as being spoiled as being manipulative. You just see them as trying to survive. You know, a kid that is frustrated, because he cannot get the the math problem, right and snaps at you. He's not being disrespectful, because he doesn't respect us because he's in fight or flight or freeze, and he's frustrated.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

A bar. How often if at all, when the parent brings in their kid, that you realize it's the parent that needs the counseling?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Very often.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah, yeah. Do you ever make that suggestion? I mean, how do you approach that?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Yes, yes, yes. Yes, absolutely. Yes. You try to include the parent in as much as possible in treatment, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I think that's a valid statement. I think a lot of us as parents, there is no rulebook that comes out with the CIT kid, there's no help book, there's no manual, there's no nothing. And I think, you know, we go off of our past experiences, which may not be great. And so I think a lot of parents may just made mistakes as a kid, you know, you had your your, you want your best interest, but then you also understand they don't have full brain development yet. And it's hard. I mean, I think parenting people on your estimated is doing, it's a hard thing. And so I think, I think the parents need to counseling and I think we all need that to help. I think everything changes and we've got social media just screwed everything up. Because everything is on there. And now these kids walk around with these phones like this and, and they'll even talk anymore. So I think it's I think it's really challenging times.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Yeah, I feel parents is the hardest thing you will ever be.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Totally. What do you how do you see social media affecting it and how parents don't understand we weren't raised with social Media. So how do we bridge that gap?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

I think I read this in an article in the New York Journal. And it says, social media is compare to despair. And I stand by it. There's nothing social about it. And it's when do you post? When you're at your best? When do you read when you're at your worst? Because if you're having fun, you're not on social media. When do you when do you watch social media? You watch it when you're alone? Looking at how others are having a great time, what does that make you feel left out? Inadequate? And V? You know, bad about yourself? When do you post you boasting? You're boasting about how great your life is?

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Usually compare to despair.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Exactly. Is that what you said? Yes, that was in the article is not mine. I'm not taking credit.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

No, I love it, though. It makes it makes so much sense to I have a friend of mine who, who is a motivational speaker. And on her Instagram, she videotaped herself, hysterically crying, and purging these emotions. And you're just looking at you go, Oh, my gosh, I don't know if I want to watch this, you know? And she's done that a couple times. And my son found it and goes, What? What is she doing? And I go, Well, that's my friend. And I mentioned her dagger. She's trying to balance the playing field by sharing, you know, the pitfalls, as well as the, you know, success. Good for her.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Because everybody would like no one posted themselves, like in their joggers, you know, with the dark shades, or in bed? Yeah, like, Look, I'm a loser. You know, I have nothing to do all day. No, nobody does that.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

On that topic, you know, life is not a flat, I always say life's not a desert. It's not just a flat. It's comes with peaks and valleys, and mountains and valleys. And you heard the term that fruits grown in the valleys, you know, so you can feed yourself to the top. And so, you know, when you if life is like that, and we need our negatives to get to the positives. How would you pass experiences, especially from childhood kind of shape our current mental and physical health? And what steps do people need to do? Do we learn from the past? Do we move on from the past? Because you don't want to hike back to the valley when you're already up here. So So what is your thought processes on that journey?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

I believe that what you need to do is to integrate, you can't change the past the past is affecting you. Some people live in the past. Some people live in bodies, and minds and brains that are stuck in the past, they don't remember they relive. And that's very scary. So the way out of the past and into the present is to integrate the past in ways that are non threatening. But we need to integrate, you can't deny what happened to you. And it's a big part of you. And at some point, it has to stop hurting you. And when that happens, you can integrate and you can feel safe in your present. And I want to say something about what you were I just had a thought about the parenting that I don't want to leave it as like the parents always at fault. relationships between parents and children are a little bit of like you match. Then there's a rupture a mismatch. And then there's a repair, and then there's match. So the repairing is really important. You're going to mismatch a lot in parenting because it's very, very hard. But it's not about the mismatching is about the repairing. As long as you can repair you're going to be okay. Always focus on the repairing as parents I think is really important to acknowledge your mistakes, to to apologize and to validate your children. Statistically you cannot always be right, and their children always be wrong. So,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

you just brought up something very important. I mentioned this the other day to a patient and I may have even mentioned it to parents. I of divorce, excuse me, divorced parents have a tendency to let the child get away with all sorts of things. Because they want that child to be on their side. And, you know, even if even if the divorce parents get along, if they don't get along, it's even worse. And the things that I see parents allow their kids to get away with, it just blows me away. How in the world? Do you manage that? As it's like an epidemic? Because so many more divorces occur? Any any, any suggestions on that?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Well, it's very hard to because then you have two different people, if raising a child together can be challenging imagining two different households. And the poor kid is stuck in between the two sets of rules, you know, and they're like, where do I go from here? You know, like, at mom says, like this, dad is like that. But sometimes the kids do adjust. And they know, okay, this is okay, here, this is not okay. There. The problem is when the kids don't know, and there are some of that, you know, some kids that really don't know what, what to do, where is much, much better. In an ideal world, it would be great if every parent was aligned and thought, you know, okay, what's best for our child? And let's set a set of rules that, you know, we can stand by and that are going to be congruent in both our house households.

Unknown:

But that doesn't happen. No, easier said than therefore I have work. I have worked. Have a job ever.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah. You know, it's actually, you know, when, when the parents, I am divorced, but my wife is like, my ex wife is like my best. But so we were able to communicate and raise the kids consistently, in congruently. But there are those that I'm, I'm shocked at how much they hate their, their, the parent of the other, the other parents X, the X. And you know, what, I can't imagine what you have to deal with when a child is left in between going well, I love dad, but Mom speaks so bad about him, you know, right. Or the other way around? Right? Yeah. How do you how do you manage that? Yeah,

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

it's very hard. It's very hard. I will tell you this. I believe that parents think that their love for their children is unconditional. And I don't think that's true. I think parents have a lot of conditions. Not all, not every parent, and not every child. But many parents have conditions for their children. Therefore the love is not unconditional. However, a child's love while he's a child, or she's a child, while you're young. Your love for your parents is unconditional, because you have so much need of that parent of that adult have that caregiver to survive, that you take everything, the good, the bad, and everything in between. So my challenge is this. If you had to parent your child as if you needed to earn that love, we would be in a different world. Because parents take their children's love for granted because it's unconditional.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Oh, boy. That's good stuff.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

It's good stuff.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

All right, I'm gonna go. We're going to move into probably one of my more favorite parts of this of the show, and that is what we call rapid fire questions. There's five questions. There are definitely a lot more. Barbara

Unknown:

Freeze, freeze, freeze mouth

Dr. Spencer Baron:

they're all fun.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

And you can't switch to Spanish and started doing Ricky Ricardo cuando. So just you know, yelling sorry.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

We don't know if Barbara even knows who Ricky Ricardo is from I Love Lucy.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Oh, all right.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

All right. We'll go easy on you. There's there's five questions and if you could answer them somewhat briefly. Great, but we ended up getting hung up on some of them and talk about some of the of your answer but If you're ready for question number one, and you're out of fight and flight and out of freeze, I'm going to go ahead and give you a question number one, are you ready?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Yes. I'll tell you what, I'll freeze but I'll never quit.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Ah.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Good job. All right. Are you ready now?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Yes.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Question number one best tip to get someone to relax and open up.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Breathe. Just brutal

Dr. Spencer Baron:

question number two, what do you personally do to put a smile on your face?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

I think happy thoughts.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah. Anything in particular, that comes to mind?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

No, no, just whatever.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Question number three, craziest fear that you had to help someone get over? And how did you do it?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Oh, that's a tough one. Craziest fear?

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Or any fear? Any any fear?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

Yeah. Look. Right now I'm struggling with a kid to enroll in college, a super smart kid. He had failures, because trauma affects your ability for new learning your concentration and your attention. And therefore, he's so smart. We play games here like mancala or Kinect for he beats me every single time I have no shot. He sees the moves four times ahead of me. And he's so smart. But he's terrified of enrolling in one simple community college class, which is math. And he's dragging his feet. And at this point, I'm like, I am like, I just beg you do it for me for me do it. I don't care about you anymore. Like I'm joking. So my last resort is humor.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah. Oh, very good. Very good. Question number four. If you could go back in time, who would you want to meet? And why?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

You know, what I would be very interested in, in having a conversation with Freud because he based his his whole theory about psychoanalysis starts with the, what he called the histrionics who were telling him that they were touched inappropriately by relatives. And he believed at that time that this is not possible. You know, like, they can be so many men touching young women inappropriately. Fast forward a century, we know how common sexual abuse is. And I wonder now that it's out in the open, how, if he would reformulate his, his theory or not, because what he said is like, if this is not happening in reality, then it's happening in the fantasy. So it doesn't matter because as long as he's happening, either in the fantasy or in reality, the symptoms develop the same. So that's what Freud said, in a nutshell. I don't want to offend any Freud followers here, but with what we know now about sexual abuse, you know, he was right.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. And that was great. Question number five, the last one, so you, you know, start stuffs it out. So you definitely will have the answer to this one. You obviously like the book, The Body Keeps the Score. So what is your favorite takeaway from that book? And if you want to add some ueber you know, what's your score? What's that

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

my score? There's so much information in this body is like in this body in this Britain this book. By that can I read it to you? This is the part I love most. And it's let me find it one second. Sorry, I should have had it marked. In the meantime, I want to show you something. This is a scan of a brain that is in fight. Right. Now, this is one that's in freeze. By which way am I moving?

Unknown:

Yeah, no good. Well,

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

I don't know exactly where it is right now apparently, I thought I knew it better. But essentially, is what I said in the beginning that trauma is leaves an imprint in your brain, in your mind. And in your body of intense sensations, emotions, and images that you don't remember, you don't you're not remembering You're reliving them as if they were happening right now. Therefore, it's very, very scary to live in that mind to live with that brain and in that body.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Hey, barbettes Alright, well, we'll come back, we'll come back to it. And then what would because we're, we'll close up the program with the one, I have one last regular question for you. It's not a rapid fire question. But it's, you know, the understanding of the human mind and body and how it evolves? And do you see anything changing in the future of your therapy and your approach, or even any, any emerging trends or techniques that are happening on a larger scale, to revolutionize the approach to mental health?

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

I believe that this Body Keeps the Score book, and everything that it stands for all the research behind it, because it's a very well researched book. Is the way this has to go next. I do believe it makes so much sense to understand human beings as a as a as a one, as a as a as a union between mind body and brain. So yes, I think that's that's the next thing.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Good. Barbara, thank you so much. I really appreciate this is such a time in life in this era that we need. People like you. In fact, there's probably I think there's a shortage of psychotherapists and mental health people. So I know you're busy and probably going to get busier. So thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your thoughts.

Dr. Barbara Donavon:

This was a lot of fun. Thank you so so much for having me.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Thank you for listening to today's episode of The cracking backs podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at cracking backs podcast. catch new episodes every Monday. See you next time.