Fighting still into his late 70s, Tips on Vitality and Power from Martial Arts Legend- Pat Worley

On this episode of Crackin' Backs, we have the honor of speaking with martial arts legend Pat Worley. With over 55 years of experience, Pat holds a 10th-degree black belt in Karate and a 2nd-degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. As a pioneer in the martial arts world, Pat has shaped thousands of black belts and continues to teach and inspire at over 76 years old.

We'll explore the rich history of martial arts that has captivated Pat throughout his life, from the early days of Karate to the evolution of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Pat shares his thoughts on how martial arts has changed over the decades, particularly the commercialization and sportification of these once-traditional disciplines. He also delves into the impact of martial arts on character development, especially in today's tech-driven world, and the lessons he's learned from his high-profile fights, including his iconic bout against Bill Wallace for the World Middleweight title.

As someone who continues to compete and win at the highest levels, including the Pan Ams, Pat provides unique insights into how he's adjusted his training as he's aged, balancing skill maintenance with the limitations of the body. Tune in for a conversation filled with wisdom, resilience, and incredible stories from a martial arts master who's lived—and continues to live—an extraordinary life.

For more about Pat Worley and his journey, check out his work at Alliance BJJ

We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.

Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Transcript

Dr. Spencer Baron: 0:00

Today on the correct and backs podcast, we're honored to be joined by the martial arts legend Pat Worley, with high ranks in both karate and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Pat has spent over 60 years dedicated to mastering these arts and teaching countless students. At 76 he's still actively teaching and living his philosophy, you're only as young as you'll ever be today, we'll explore how the history of martial arts captured his passion, the changes he's seen over the years and the decades, and the lessons he has learned from his high profile fights, like one against Bill Wallace. Bill superfoot Wallace Pat also shares his insights on cultivating mental resilience, Aging Gracefully, and the powerful impact martial arts can have on building character in a world driven by technology. Tune in for wisdom stories and a lifetime of experience.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 0:59

All right. Well, today we have a very special guest that anybody that's ever followed martial arts should know this man's name, and we're so happy to have you on the show. Most people don't know. And before I tell you who it is most he this man is involved with both the karate side as well as the jiu jitsu side. And most people don't know that jiu jitsu is a Japanese term, and it means the way of pliability. And as chiropractors, that has a whole other meaning that we may talk about, we may talk about, but we want to welcome this show, and I'm going to say it this Wednesday. Master Pat Worley, so thank you to the show that. Oh,

Pat Worley: 1:34

I'm very flattered to be here. I'm honored. Thank you so much.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 1:39

Wow. You know, I feel history is very important, and I want to start off the show with some history. Because, you know, in chiropractic, which is Dr Spencer and I's passion and love is a balance of art, philosophy history, just as martial arts is. And even though you started out in karate, the Japanese brought their Kodak Khan style to the farmers of Brazil and through their cultures, change it to what we now know as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. What is the history of these arts that drew you to this, to make this such a huge passion and part of your life? Oh, wow.

Pat Worley: 2:15

Big question. As you know, I started my karate career in 1967 I was always intrigued by, you know, you saw the Bruce Lee movies and the wild wild west movies, you know, Wild Wild West TV show, and I was interested in it. And so on these December Christmas, December 66 I got $50 as a Christmas present. And so on, January 3 and 67 I went down and said, How far can I go? And there's karate, and they went not very far. I said, what runs out? Let me know. So I enrolled, because I was always intrigued by it, and luckily, I had a knack for it. I did, I did well. And so I did that for years. And then one of my students was a at the time, I think a purple belt, maybe Brown, under Jiu Jitsu. And up here in Minneapolis there was, there was only one school, and most of it didn't know what you think about it. Let me backtrack. The first time I ever saw the Gracies. They had an ad in black belt magazine back in the 70s. They're all lined up like this, and we'll fight anybody. And we didn't know who they were. We just kept thinking, Well, come out and fight. I don't get it, because we didn't know what they were doing. And now fast forward back to my students. Had a school, and he was training, and he and his friend would drive out to California and stay in horse Gracie basement and take private lessons, and then they would go to school up here. There was only one place that taught up here. And one day I was watching them, I'm going, that's interesting. That's really interesting. And they were doing around, and I was the time, 5554 and I thought, well, I'm too old. But one day I was called a good friend of mine, George, who's my age. I said, we're gonna do some Jiu Jitsu. He said, What's that? Don't worry, I'll come pick you up. So we're drive to a suburb. It's about, you know, 20 miles, 30 miles from Minneapolis, and go this guy's basement and garage and train. It'd be a guy named Clint close. He was my friend, my teacher. My teacher was my student, Damon hurts. He was my teacher. Now, Sean shirk may have heard of him, and David Camarillo, maybe we might be there, and we would be us. Of course, they're very advanced. We're out there going, what do you do? How do you do this? And it was just very intriguing. So I just kind of got going, and then I've been sticking with it ever since, and so that's been 20 years ago. Let's

Dr. Spencer Baron: 4:45

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Pat Worley: 5:57

not quite. No, 7576 next month?

Dr. Terry Weyman: 6:01

Oh, yes, but I can month,

Pat Worley: 6:03

just look older

Dr. Terry Weyman: 6:09

with still plus, right?

Dr. Spencer Baron: 6:13

You're still actively teaching, and we want to know what motivates you at this stage of your life, and what role, what role does martial arts play in your physical and mental and emotional health?

Pat Worley: 6:25

Another great question, and I keep telling everybody, keep training, no excuses, because I'm a big believer, if you stop, you die, and you've got to be active. And I'm lucky. I haven't had a hip replacement. I haven't had knee replacements. All my friends have, but I haven't, but I go to class, and I roll six days a week, and I roll with some youngsters all the time, and they're good to me. But, you know, I do okay, I think and so, but I just go, you know, I just, it's still enjoyable. It's still a thrill.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 6:59

Okay? With that said, Hold on, because I you know, for someone to not have injuries and be that involved and have done it for so long and not have, you know, hip or knee or shoulder replacements or all crazy things that people are getting these days. Is it? Is it your belief that you'll never need that, or is it just how you take care of yourself and do recovery, or the way you train? What do you think that is, other than maybe genetics?

Pat Worley: 7:30

Genetics,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 7:34

after all that, right? Yeah,

Pat Worley: 7:36

I'm lucky. I eat a balanced meal. No, I don't. I don't smoke, you know, I drink wine moderately, but I try to eat, you know, fruits and vegetables. I don't eat a lot of fast food. I try to get a lot of rest. I do some stretching, but mainly I just stay active. And also I tap early and I tap often, so, yeah, I can't before they break something. But I've just really, I've been very lucky. I'm just fortunate. I was a bit I was a very well known kicker back when I used to karate, I do have, I have a I can't kick anymore, because I tore up a hamstring back in 68 and it got worse and worse and worse. So now it's a lot of scar tissue, so I'm not able to kick very much, and I can punch a little bit and kick low, but I can't kick high, so I still do a little bit on the bag once in a while, but no, jiu jitsu really is not impactful. And people ask you, which would I like better? You know? And I like them both. And they say, which one's best or which one's which one is better for whatever? And it's different. Karate is very, very hard. I mean, you have to have the right hips, right flexibility, the right reflexes, and you have to, if you don't have it, you don't be good at karate. Jiu Jitsu is not hard. It's real easy. It's just complicated. I mean, you know, you don't have to be as flexible, but you gotta, you gotta, know, three or four steps ahead of people, and that's hard, you know, just it's so complex. So karate is easy to, you know, ease. There's only, like, three kicks. You got to know there's variations of that. And where jiu jitsu is very complicated, you know, and Jiu Jitsu, you know, isn't it's not hard to do, just when to do what. That's hard thing. Whereas karate, you got to be able to know when to hit and plus, when somebody punches in the face it hurts when I showed right in my Nana like it so complicated. Yeah, karate blend is

Dr. Spencer Baron: 9:56

martial arts. Do you blend the two martial arts? And I don't do.

Pat Worley: 10:01

To sort of say what I learned from my karate does carry over in learning Jiu Jitsu, because it's just a learning process. And plus, with karate, you know, you become very aware of your body, so that transition was easier. I'm more aware of, you know, I don't explain it, but the coordination, I'm using my legs a lot, using, you know, so there, that's pretty natural, but it's just, they're both great. They're both which one's better for self defense? Well, a kick in the face is pretty effective. If you choke, if you choke somebody unconscious, that's pretty effective. So they're both great. And I'm also a big, big believer that everybody, everybody should be introduced to the martial arts. They should do something. And I'll go back. So I was dating my wife. We've been married for 30 years, but before we were married, we were getting serious. I said, I got three rules. I know you're laughing. She had 30 rules. I just had okay. I said, you can't do drugs. I'm sorry. I just can't be around that. She goes. Not a problem. I said, you can't smoke. It killed my parents. I can't be around smoke. Not gonna ever smoke. I said, You gotta do karate for for six months. I ain't doing that. I said, you have to. I'm a big believer in it. You just six months. After six months, it's up to you, but I want you to have a basis for self defense. So she made 33 black belt. She loved it. She stayed for a long time.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 11:37

So so let me understand now she can kick your ass. Oh God, before

Pat Worley: 11:46

again. Another thing you know, comparing karate and jiu jitsu and karate, if you're a guy, you're gonna beat most women, not all of them, but most of them Jiu Jitsu. It's a 5050, I got women that just kick my ass on a regular basis, really. And I keep telling them, whoa, time out, ladies, I have a male ego here. You gotta be more careful.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 12:09

Wow, that's great. So you were, so this is just a for nostalgic reasons, you were, you were a good kicker. And when you say that, I remember that Bill Wallace was considered superfluid, right? Yep. Did you ever meet the guy

Pat Worley: 12:27

farm on national television for the world middleweight title, full contact karate title? Wow. Everybody I've ever met or will meet saw him knock me out. He's kicking. His kicking is good. No doubt about him. He's got the best kicks there ever. But what really is good about Bill, I hope you're listening bill, he has a left hook that will knock in an elephant. Oh, I mean, his left hook was, I mean, horrible. I mean, he hit people, hit him in the body and made him cry. So he had a really good left hook, but yeah, known Bill for over 50 years, great guy, great athlete. He's still very active. He's out there kicking and punching, wow,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 13:10

wow. That's great. That sounds great. Yeah, I remember him growing up. He was, he was a badass.

Pat Worley: 13:17

Yes, he still is.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 13:19

So, so you we started to talk about the, you know, the physical aspects of it and how you have maintained such a healthy body. But how about mental health? What can you share? What does that do for you mentally but also something that you could share with others that why that would help them? Because, you know, in this day and age now, right? There needs to be more discipline and more understanding and more, you know, looking inside yourself than outside. Great

Pat Worley: 13:48

question before I got into the martial arts, and one of the most valuable things I learned from it is the discipline and goal setting. Because when I was in school, first day of school, I'd go in and get my textbook, turn to the back of the book, and go, I can't learn this stuff. Oh, my God, that's too hard. Well, the karate you learn, you don't do that. You just have to the next belt. Can I get to go belt? Well, yeah, I can do that. And you get to go, can you get I can do that. So I've learned to break things down to smaller, manageable chunks and set set long term goals with short term steps. Plus, it's such a great way to relieve stress and with a discipline. You know, because I consider myself very disciplined, I go to class six days a week. I don't miss. I'm missing today because I'm doing this, but normally I don't miss. But, you know, just one's very important. A lot of people, you know, they get lazy, and then all sudden, they look up and they haven't done anything for 10 years, and you go, Well, come on. It's one day that. Time. Every day you go, I'm going to do ABC. When I started my Jiu Jitsu, I had my company and my schools, and I told my staff, I told her about I said, monday at 10, don't schedule anything. That's my jiu jitsu time. You don't mess with it. No meetings, no phone calls. From 10 to 12, I'm doing Jiu Jitsu, don't bother me. And so I just made that a rule. And so every Monday I would and then later I went to two days a week, then three days a week, then six days a week. But now I'm retired, so don't worry, they don't, they don't bother me.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 15:36

So since the 70s, since you were so active in the martial arts, what? What has changed, as as the evolution, and you know, the way that marketing and commercialization of martial arts has become. What have you seen in, you know, karate, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? What? How has it changed? And do you feel like it's lost something

Pat Worley: 16:03

spiritual. No, you always have give and take. There's always good in bed. Karate. When I first started, I was 18, and I was one of the younger ones in the class. Most people were 2122 and they came, most of them came from a pretty rough background, and it was very, very physical. The teaching was not very sophisticated, and then we didn't learn. Didn't know how to teach, and because there were so few schools, it got the teacher had to make things up. And an example of that, we had America war in Texas. America war was a four by four nailed to a wall, and you walked him. Hit that four by four well, so I hit it one time. Had a big guy in class. It was a white belt that was a brown so I was just hit. So I hit it really hard. He walks up and he whacks it one time. His eyes water up and he goes, tap, tap, tap. The next two never came back. So the classes were not designed to keep people they resign more to run people off. Luckily, Jeff Smith, if you know who he is, Jeff Smith was one, number one guy in the world in karate, one of the first full contact karate fighters. He and Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace. Anyway, we were friends in Texas. He got a job in DC under June re, and he recruited me to go up there. June re taught me how to teach, because it was much more. You had a curriculum and it was designed. And so that was the that even then most people were 18 and up. Watch now, you have a lot more families, a lot more kids. And since you have kids, you got to change the way you teach. You have to change your emphasis. You got to have a little more You can't be so hardcore. As far as being a knucklehead, you know, you have to realize that people are there for different reasons. And so I think one of a mistake I made, you had to be it was very in the 70s. It was all very physical and mental, but you had to meet a certain standard. And that standard really was pretty vague. It was kind of subjective to the teacher. And so the teacher said, You got to be ABC. Well, they didn't make allowances for people. I had two students that I regret so much not making black belt. One guy was 46 he never missed he showed up to class every day, worked his butt off, but he wasn't physically talented. You know? He was older. He wasn't a good, as good athlete as some of these 18 year old kids, so he got held back a lot. And I regret that another guy was in his 60s when he was there. Okay, he was in his 60s, and this was hard. I mean, it was really hard on this guy. And because he was 61 very flexible, and he won, you know, he was, he won big, anyway, small. And so he got held back. And I regret because he was so disciplined, he would come to class, work his butt off, take beatings beyond I mean, you get kicked in the ribs, you know, those days you get hurt, you know? So I regret the fact that we didn't have a more accommodating belt system that would really recognize reward people for good effort and discipline. It was all just physical. You got to go to ABC, and that would change, according to was in class, you know, you could be the best guy in class until another bad guy came in. Then he was a second bandist.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 19:38

You know, on that note, we've, we've, you know, when we first started, I told you I had a hard time calling you just pat. You know, we were raised in a world of respect, where we are people that have achieved, sure they'd be called Mr. Or master or whatever. And now we have a we've come into a world of participation trophies, you know. So you kind of talked about, you have to earn your right, whether you make it or not. How do you believe with the character change of these kids and adults nowadays, you know, we went from the wars where kids were fighting at 18 and and then they come into other struggles and and now we've gotten this years of complaints complacency as a master who's seen a lot in your years. How do you believe that martial arts can impact character development of some of the young people today, especially the world dominated by technology and instant gratification? Another

Pat Worley: 20:32

great question. And, you know, I'm a big believer every kid should be involved in karate or jiu jitsu and karate a little bit more on the discipline. You know, the they have a much more rigid structure for classes, or just a little bit more open and free. They're both great, not criticizing either one. But if you know, I needed, I needed karate when I was younger, I needed that discipline. I needed that structure. I needed someone to tell me, No, you stand attention, don't move. Okay, you know, here you get in that stance and don't move. Here you do this. I needed that because it was it's good for you. And kids need that. They need to learn that they can accomplish things, and they need to learn that they can fail at things and not be a loser. So I think, like I said, sometimes they give out too much before they earned it. And I do believe that you've got to be flexible with children and beginners, because it's very foreign to them. And most of them are there because they need some confidence. And if you look too hard at first, they follow the wayside and you never help them. So you kind of need to bring them along slowly and help them develop, and as they develop, then piecemeal it to them. So for stuff, I tell my teachers, okay, if I gave you five balls to juggle you, you couldn't do it. If I gave you one. Boss here, throw that up and down when you got good at that, I gave you two, and you could do two. Good once you got that, I gave you three, once you can do three. So that same way it should be teaching. You don't just tell everybody do all this. You give them stuff, and you give them a little bit to work on and look for things they're doing well. Then you slowly increase the difficulty and the responsibility. And if you bring them along that way, they develop much better, and they feel more confident. Does that kind of answer the question? Oh, it does.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 22:29

It does. And it brings me to another thought process that a lot of people don't understand you. If you've ever heard the term USA karate, that's pretty much you and you started, and you developed karate to a very high level, where both martial arts studios in the world of karate owe a lot to you for developing the business side and then, and then you've also taken the jiu jitsu side up. And you also so you've, you've learned so much as a businessman in your life and growing up, but you're also checking you just said, from Bill Wallace a left hook to the face to hurt. You know so in life, we learn from our tragedies or our left hooks, as well as shaping our life in business, what lessons have taught you that you can look back on your time in business as a martial artist that you've taken on to beyond the mat.

Pat Worley: 23:26

Well, again, Bill's hook taught me one you're not as good as you think you are, to go back to the basics and work on basics. But that was a so again, in my history, I was in DC until 70 from seven to 74 is in Washington, working for June re My brother came to Minneapolis, and I came up shortly after. So we had, there was Gordon Franks, who was a super light world champ. Was my student. He came up Larry Carnahan, who runs the Nasca tournament circuit. My brother and me were four of us, and we had, at the time, it's called June Institute. Then we changed it and called it to Mid America. Then my brother and I split up. We couldn't get along, so we split. He did national karate. I did USA karate. And what I learned from again, from there is to go back to basics, we're not sure, go back to the beginning and start over and make sure you're disciplined and do ABC. And one thing is, you don't want to over spend or don't, don't develop such a humongous overhead that you can't, that you fall behind, don't, don't set your overhead, your peak performance. So if you're, if you're doing $100,000 a month, don't make that your your overhead. Look at your lower area and make that your overhead so you have a profit. And two is, be disciplined. You know, do good business sometimes. Figured out a long time ago, we're in the service business. You have to make people happy. You have to give them service. You got to meet their they're not there but for what you want. They're there for what they want. And I used to tell my staff when someone says, How are you I said, That's not a question, that's a greeting. Don't tell them your life story. Oh man, last night, I had such a heart. They don't care about that. They want to know how they can get better and have fun in Jiu Jitsu or right? They want to come there to get away from their problems. So don't tell them your problems. Absolutely right?

Dr. Spencer Baron: 25:37

I gotta. I gotta. It's just a far reaching question about someone that was highly respected in karate in South Florida and probably nationally. His name was John pechieves. Do you ever remember her name?

Pat Worley: 25:53

I know John, yeah. Well,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 25:56

he's not around anymore, but I treat his son just the other day, yeah, his son's around, yeah, yeah. And his, his son came in because his shoulder hurt, because he was punching cement on a daily basis. John still training. Yeah, John and his and his sister Tina is just as much of a badass as John ever was. They're great. I'll, I'm going to tell them that we've spoken, that they need to listen to this podcast. Tell him, I

Pat Worley: 26:23

don't know if he knows me, but I knew his father. You know, not real well, but yeah, yeah, he was a good group. Good group.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 26:30

Yeah, very good. All right. Terry, go ahead. Sorry.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 26:37

You've kind of talked about the mental toughness, but mental toughness and mental resilience are two different things. And what advice do you have for people building up their physical and mental toughness as well? Resilient resilience, especially as we get older?

Pat Worley: 26:54

Yeah, great questions kind of make me think too much. One thing is, it is day at a time, you know. And two is, you got to think, be disciplined, but don't, don't try to be a tough guy. You know, if you're hurt, it's okay to say, Hey, I'm hurt, you know, watch out that shoulders messed up. Let's don't, don't, don't attack it if they attack it, tap early, tap often. If I'm going to spar somebody, I say, Don't punch me in the face anymore. You know, I've learned that that's at this age. It's not fun, so you've got to. And a big part is it goes back to read the first page and go, I can do this. Don't look at the last page. Take it small steps. You know as your head, if you got a challenge in front of you, break it down and know that you can do it if you just take small steps. And of course, people around you are important. You want to put people around you that are supportive and helpful and not negative. You just just basic stuff, you know, live a good life, be a good person and be around good people.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 28:17

Have you made any adjustments as you've aged, any changes in the way you train as time, as time progressed. I mean, we know that even competing in your 70s, you win winning gold in the Pan American Games and what, what? What have you done since then to keep yourself having longevity in that in your sport?

Pat Worley: 28:42

Well, I get a lot of rest. I take my naps, but I try not to be like on weightlifting. I don't do heavy weights anymore. Do very light weights. And when I'm training, I try to keep it at a slow pace. I do some scram when I do some fast movement, but overall, I'll try to, you know, break it down. And if the guy gets going too fast, I try to slow him down a little bit, not by telling them, just by my technique, you know, break I grab them, pull them in the guard or something. But I don't use a lot of explosive motions, because that's, I think, where I have to worry about me being urged if I try to really explode. That's that's a little more stressful on my joints and my muscles, but, you know, that's good. Use common sense. Hell, try and keep training. No excuses.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 29:35

Now, when you're not training, what would you suggest, or what do you do for recovery. I mean, everybody's got, you know, some people don't do recovery at all, and then some people do, like a cold plunge here, or a massage here. What other things that you do when you're not training, as far as not covering?

Pat Worley: 29:55

I like the cold the cold plunge, but it's too cold. It's. I live in Minnesota, I hate cold. One thing I do is I do a little stretching. I lift weights twice a week, but very light. I don't do heavy and I try to eat regularly, and I try to rest, and I don't do anything extreme, like, you know, I don't I don't run anymore because that hurts my joints, my knees and stuff. So the running I quit but, but I still do caravascular By doing the jiu jitsu in moderation. In moderation, it's

Dr. Terry Weyman: 30:37

been something interjected. So you mentioned way in the beginning. I want to go down memory lane a little bit. Whenever we have a legend on the show, it's nice to talk about relative stuff, but it's also nice to just go back and hear some stories. You mentioned the Gracie house in California, in the in the basement. Friend of ours who's been on the show is Michael Kroger. Shout out to him, and he actually just did a podcast from that basement and but I want to hear some stories of back in the day, to check Noris days to be the back in the 60s and 70s, the 80s and and what was like fighting back then, and where are some of your fondest memories?

Pat Worley: 31:18

Good, another good question. Okay, first of all, in the 60s, fighting was really hard. We found on concrete floors, and you could throw people and you could stomp on people so you could and they had a rule, and okay, Wallace says it best. Bill says best. What they call a point. In Texas, they call manslaughter every place else. But in Texas, in the early days, the rule was, if you're rushing forward, your opponent could punch in the face as hard as you wanted, because he can't control how fast he came in. It's not his fault. You're going into it. So if a guy was attacking, you could punch him in the face. And back to Norris. Norris was very good, by the way, really good. He's fighting a guy named Fred REM. Fred REM was notorious for bent, the toughest, meanest guy around. So Fred came across, punched chuck in the nose, dropped chuck to the ground. Get him hard. Okay, you know, they took him in. He gets back up. Fred comes in again. Chuck takes a hashtag back, hits him in the solar plexus, falls in like an accordion, and Fred falls the ground and groans for about three minutes. He can't breathe. He was one of the most beautiful techniques I've ever seen, and it was gorgeous. So Chuck just had really good and he was, he was a real good fighter. He really was a good fighter. And so that was one of the things that I thought was, you know, it just, it was very impressive. It's just, I mean, pin, perfect punch, perfect timing, just half step back and then hit him right in the solar plexus, just dropped him. And Fred was tough. Fred was No, no, you know, sissy by any stretch, but you could do I had a guy one time I was fighting a guy. This guy was very, very good, and I took him upside down. I had a thought in my head, I'm gonna break your neck, because I tried to stuff his head to the ground, and I stuffed him down the ground, and I started stomping on him. And that's back. Luckily I caught the guy young before he matured, because he went on to become the number one fighter in the country. Can't even remember the cattle really. Ray was really good, but

Dr. Spencer Baron: 33:28

I hope he has a chiropractor.

Pat Worley: 33:33

But, and plus, the rules were different from from region to region. If you went to one region, you may have groin kicks. Go to another region. You can't do groin kick. You go on the East Coast, there was no head contact unless you kick them in the face. It wasn't lab, but they still give you the points. It made no sense. And if you go to the West Coast, you couldn't get close to the head, because if you got close, they'd give the you hit them and give them the other guy points. And now, because of Larry Carnahan, he has united most of the points. So they had the Nazca, so it's consistent across the country.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 34:11

But do you remember your toughest fight?

Pat Worley: 34:15

Bill was one of my toughest obviously, Bill was good, but I have, there was a lot of good people. It was, it was a lot harder, you know, because you could, you could hurt people. I mean, sorry to say this, but when I fought in those days, my thought was, I want to take your air. I'm going to hurt you as as badly as I can. I'm going to try to make you not want to move. And so you try to hurt people. Wow, rules have changed now. So I didn't dislike the people. I liked them, but they were my opponent, so I was gonna try to hurt them, and they were trying to hurt me too. I mean, let's be fair.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 34:52

So hey, Spence, are you listening? Here's a guy that was slamming people into concrete floors, and he has no hip. Problem, no hip replacements, no knee replacements. I know. Yeah, so I think you're more successful than people realize. I mean, but I can't imagine that there's now

Dr. Spencer Baron: 35:14

one more thing, Terry, one more thing, how many times he's gotten hit. Ryan has and his and has a memory sharp as attack. No concussions, right? We

Pat Worley: 35:25

don't i Okay, one of the best fighters of all time, guy named Mac warn was one of the best. He kicked me in the face and crushed in my cheekbone crested in yeah and but he didn't knock me out. He knocked me down. I got up and they said, and they said that gave him the he won. So walking off the stage in front of my said, Pat, you got to go the hospital. Your cheeks crushed in. Oh yeah, there's a hole here. Some blood just kind of flowing out my mouth, so and my nose. It was a bad injury

Dr. Terry Weyman: 36:02

with all I'm starting to think even my generation, but all these tick tock and all these YouTubers and all that we have, we have a kind of a wussy generation now. I mean, can you imagine the kids nowadays and going all right, you have to fight where's the pads? Pads. No speaking pads.

Pat Worley: 36:22

I was the first person to ever wear the pads in competition, and I helped design me and Larry Carnahan, Gordon Franks and John Worley. We were working with June re who invented the pads. And so we helped help design them and test them out. And then a woman attorney in Baltimore, and they were yellow at the time, and people called me duck feet. So I'm fighting a guy, and I kick down the face really hard. Knock him down. Knock him out. And then Mr. Reece said, his face okay. I said, I don't care about his face. My foot's fine. We kicked elbows and things. It used to hurt, and so then we wore the pads in Texas for a team match. It was a DC team against the Texas Team, and it was the first time we ever wore the pads as in competition like that, pardon me. And that changed everything. The pads are the greatest ever happened to karate, because without them, people were getting hurt all the time. You know, just, it's just you can't kick in somebody's face and not hurt them.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 37:25

You know what was interesting that that there was, uh, classes that where the instructor would wear, like a, like a, like a padded suit, and really taught students how to hit a body as hard as possible, especially it was more like a self protection. And I don't hear much about it, because I can't imagine being in that that body of armor padded

Pat Worley: 37:51

around, but that

Dr. Spencer Baron: 37:53

was a pretty cool idea.

Pat Worley: 37:58

Yeah, we've never did it, but is a good training, because a lot of people just don't know it's like to hit something. And I feel don't like to be hit. And a lot of people, when they get hit, they're not really hurt, but they're they've never been hit before, so they're, oh my God, I've been hit. Didn't really hurt them. They just think they were and then they not, not recommending you could hit the head a lot. That's not good. But yeah, hitting things. Some of you don't know it's like to hit something

Dr. Terry Weyman: 38:23

at all. You mentioned that you made your wife do karate for six months as one of your non negotiables. Now you're also in jujitsu. What would you recommend to somebody listening to show who's never done any martial art in the world? Do they go? Would you recommend a karate studio, a a kung fu studio, a Tai Chi studio, a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu studio, what would you recommend? Another?

Pat Worley: 38:48

Another great question. I would tell them, Go visit all those and then see which one fits your needs at that time, which may change. But some people, my wife, you know, she would have trouble doing jiu jitsu because that up and close stuff is really hard on her. You know, a lot of people that it's very difficult to put your face in someone's crotch. It's like, that's that's not that that bothers people or the sweat dripping under that gig. Some people that has trouble. On the other hand, some people don't like being hit. You know, if they get even a little bit of hit, bothers them, and so they don't mind the grappling. And it may change. So you may start out in jiu jitsu and then do some karate, or start in karate, or you may do them both, but you have to go and check out the nearest school or place on your own and decide what fits you at that time and see if the instructor fits you, because the instructor plays such a huge part in the school. I'm under Damian hertz, and this guy is one of the best teachers in the country. And as far as Jiu Jitsu, he's a great. Competitor, but he teaches great classes. He doesn't try to make me him. He tries to let me be me, which is where a lot of teachers mess up, but go visit and watch see other students who react to the instructor. See how the instructor reacts to the students. See if they're respectful toward each other, if that's what you want to do,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 40:23

help. I got another one for you. And this is a more of a personal woman. I was in Indonesia at one time and and I was working train with the guy, and he for the first half hour, we were burning incense. He was praying. He was doing a lost stuff on the beach before we would even start, because it was more of a religion and an art, first, physical second. And then we come to the United States, and there was, like, almost like, pay your money, get a belt. There's, there was such a huge difference. Are you seeing, as time goes by, some of that art and that philosophy is going away to the business side, or you seen it coming back. What's your thoughts on that?

Pat Worley: 41:03

Two things. One, the business side is good. You can, you can have a good business and still have a very good and karate school, again, my brother has national karate. They're very high quality. I think my guys are good quality. There's a lot of good, high quality schools that also do good business. David COVID, you know who that is, okay. He's a he does a lot of seminars, but he teaches good karate, and so when he goes to a school, they still emphasize quality, but they also do good business. Some people think that they have to go after the money and let the quality go downhill. And I don't think you have to do that. I think you have to be smart and remember that people take time to learn. Don't give it away. But don't expect Johnny athlete to be or bookworm Sam be as good as Johnny athlete. Let them both be their individual persons, and let them both develop as they develop. Expect more from Johnny athlete, from athletics, and then let Sammy bookworm come along as at his pace. Don't compare the two, but and charge more.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 42:20

How do you feel about the next generation of practitioners and their ability to maintain that, that integrity and that, that same philosophy that you were brought into the martial arts world with as it's moving along in today's direction with this new generation

Pat Worley: 42:39

hard It worries me. Sometimes I see somebody out there that do stuff I wish they didn't. You know they Mr. Reed, this guy worked for him. Don't chase the money, pet, chase the passion. The money will follow. And that's a good thing if you stay true and I say that I don't mean you have to be hardcore. Back to, you know, Sam book, Sammy, expecting to be Johnny athlete, but if you stay true to good quality martial arts and give good service and teach classes that are inspirational, then you can be successful financially. You don't have to live in a basement and charge$20 a month. No, that's not that's not it. It's what you do, is how well you teach, how well you relate to your students, what you're giving them, how you help them develop what they need. That's what counts. And there are some places that just don't get it. They think just just grab for the money. And I think that's a mistake.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 43:46

So I think that this is probably a good time to ask you, since you just were comparing generations and things your buddy Tim Stark, who once saw you doing burpees in the corner after after a 10 round open and he said the bat was was riddled with 20 to 30 year olds that were exhausted, laying in pools of their own sweat. He wants to know what was your secret to driving you to continue like that.

Pat Worley: 44:21

I was about to go compete in the world championships, and I told myself I would never go in under developed or out of shape, and so I would discipline myself to do I would ramp up so I'd end up doing like about 20 or so burpees in the class and twin or so push ups. So, because I want to make sure when I got in the ring, I was in better shape than my opponent. And so fear is a good motivator. Yes,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 44:52

yes, yes, yes. And the element of competition as always, that always is a good driver. But I have a feeling that you're. Was inspired and motivated regardless.

Pat Worley: 45:03

So far, I'm lucky again. I'm lucky I the martial arts fit me very well, and I'm very lucky. I got into it, extremely lucky. My future would not have been good without martial arts. Hey, Pat.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 45:18

How old were you when you're when you went to this world championship that you're doing burpees after 10 rounds on the

Pat Worley: 45:24

open thank I was probably 70, 6970,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 45:27

I don't like doing burpees now.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 45:33

Shit, there's worst, yeah.

Pat Worley: 45:38

Well, you know, good for you. Yeah, I don't do something anymore, because I'm not, I don't have a tournament coming up.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 45:46

So you mentioned genetics, you know, it's what keeps you going. But now, now I got some curiosity. You know what? What was his home life like that drove you to, you know, you be the way you are. Have you ever looked back at what shaped you during that? You know, your childhood years?

Pat Worley: 46:06

Okay, genetics, I have a twin brother, twin. Oh, we're not medical, but we're twins. Sorry, Mike, he weighs maybe 250 you know, he's out of shape, and so this genetics was also choices, and I'm not sure what. I don't know what kept me motivated. I got a lot of Fauci. I got in a lot of fights as a kid. I know that. So karate was kind of cool. So back to my karate. First of all, this sounds horrible. Sorry, kids. My first time i Sparty guy. I hit him with some sloppy, rich hands out thing I saw it dropped him. I remember thinking, this is magic. I I'm in love, so I've always liked to fight. And Were

Dr. Spencer Baron: 47:11

you bullied in high school? In school? No, no,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 47:15

I think he was the bully. Yeah,

Pat Worley: 47:18

some say that, but I wasn't.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 47:22

I Your brother is? How much older than you? Couple minutes, couple seconds. I'm

Pat Worley: 47:27

a minute older than he is. Oh, you're a minute older than Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 47:31

Was there always competition between you two? Now he's way smarter,

Pat Worley: 47:38

way smarter.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 47:40

But you made the healthier choices, though,

Pat Worley: 47:42

yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 47:45

All right, so Well, I'll tell you, we are. You're in the end of the show. We have our favorite part, which is the rapid fire questions. Oh no. Now you You seem pretty sharp. You see,

Pat Worley: 47:57

whoa. Evaluate your scale there on shortness,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 48:04

I think you'll do just fine. There are random questions. There's five of them, and they're rapid fire. Now we end up, we end up making them a little more lengthy the answers, but if you can answer them quick and easy, that's fine, but we can elaborate if necessary. Be ready for question number one, yes. All right, does Chuck Norris Look under your bed for Pat Worley before he goes climbing out of it?

Pat Worley: 48:29

Never

Dr. Spencer Baron: 48:36

Oh, that's great. Question number two, on a serious note, many people feel that they are too old to start martial arts after 50 due to fear of injury. What words of encouragement would you give them to help make that leap?

Pat Worley: 48:48

You'll not be younger tomorrow, right? You won't be younger. That's

Dr. Spencer Baron: 48:56

right. There you go. Question number three, have you ever been choked out, and how did it feel? Been

Pat Worley: 49:04

choked out several times, and doesn't hurt you just wake up very confused.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 49:13

All right, very good question number four, what suggestion or any analogies that you can see between martial arts and life examples like how to pick your opponent, when to tap out, leaving your ego at the door. Ego

Pat Worley: 49:29

at the door, good, but the big thing is that it teaches you that there are failures in life. Nothing's forever, and you can be successful if you keep plugging forward. You never become a failure until you quit. Trying this little thing is not over until you quit or you win. And so just always, always be disciplined. Do do things that you know are good for you, and do it day by day. Don't think the old thing you know. Look long term, short work, short. Arm

Dr. Spencer Baron: 50:01

every day. It's great. You know, actually, I do have a question to ask you out of curiosity. You know, I always talk to my kids about about ego and how, you know, we walk through the streets sometimes, and we watch, you know, kids coming at us, and they pump up their job. You know, I always say to my boys, I go, it's the guy that he's very unsuspecting that you would need to worry about. It's the black belt that you would be more concerned with, because he's more humble and doesn't have to pop up his chest like a white belt would want to go and try his new thing and kick someone's ass, you know, just right there, and be the troublemaker. I mean, is that? Do you find that, and do you teach that in your world? Absolutely?

Pat Worley: 50:40

Yeah, if you got to say who you are, you ain't,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 50:48

I like that. That's good. Yeah, it's all about personal power. What do you feel on the inside versus?

Pat Worley: 50:59

It's about, you know, that's them, not you don't, don't try to be them, be you, and their issues are their issues, not your issues. You know.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 51:10

Great. All right, the final question, okay, were you born with this sense of humility, or did you get taught this by your parents, or did you learn it on the mat?

Pat Worley: 51:23

Bill Wallace taught me that. He taught you a lot. Taught me a lot.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 51:29

No kidding. How was that like? What was your impression? And how did you finally realize that humility, that sense of humility,

Pat Worley: 51:39

yes, you always know there's always somebody better, and you're just not that good. You're just a guy. You know, just a guy.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 51:53

Well, I appreciate this.

Pat Worley: 51:54

Thank you so much. Appreciate you guys. I really this has been a lot more fun than I thought. Well, y'all did a good job.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 52:01

Thank you. Your your memory for names and times and places was fascinating. Thank you very much.

Pat Worley: 52:09

I tell people, have a great memory. It's just very short.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 52:14

When you lose a match, sometimes it's good to have it. Yeah,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 52:19

you know it's it's an honor to have you on the show master Pat and we really appreciate you taking the time so many we need to learn, to learn from people that are above us, and we can learn so much from people like you. So anybody that's been slammed into concrete, I bow to you. So thank you for taking the time and the fact that you gave up an unconditional I will never miss my workout. For us, that's a true honor, so we really appreciate that.

Pat Worley: 52:47

Thank you very much. I'm flattered you even had me on really. Thank

Dr. Terry Weyman: 52:51

you. All right, buddy. Well, we may have you back on again, so you just keep training so you stay sharp.

Pat Worley: 52:57

Thank you.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 52:58

All right, buddy. Take care. You.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 53:04

Thank you for listening to today's episode of The cracking backs podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at cracking backs podcast. Catch new episodes every Monday. See you next time you.