Crisis, Conflict & Burnout: The Hard Truths Dr. Thom Mayer Wants You to Know

In this compelling episode of "Crackin' Backs," we are honored to host Dr. Thom Mayer, a distinguished leader in emergency and sports medicine, renowned for his crisis leadership. As the Medical Director for the NFL Players Association, Dr. Mayer has been pivotal in advancing player health and safety protocols. His extensive experience includes serving as the Command Physician at the Pentagon during 9/11 and leading medical response teams in Ukraine.

Key Discussion Points:

• Early Leadership in Crisis: Dr. Mayer reflects on a defining moment early in his career that revealed his innate ability to lead under pressure, sharing insights into personal growth during emergencies.
• Lessons from Major Crises: Drawing from his experiences during 9/11 and other significant events, Dr. Mayer discusses critical, yet often overlooked, lessons about human resilience and the power of collaboration.
• Cultivating Trust in Leadership: Emphasizing that "innovation moves at the speed of trust," Dr. Mayer delves into strategies for building trust within teams and oneself when navigating tough decisions.
• Health Practices from the NFL: He shares valuable health and mindset practices from the NFL that individuals can adopt to enhance their physical and mental well-being.
• Redefining Burnout: Addressing common misconceptions about burnout, especially in healthcare, Dr. Mayer offers a fresh perspective on how to approach and mitigate it.
• Innovations Through Trust: He provides examples from his career where building trust led to groundbreaking innovations and unexpected solutions.
• Applying Military Medicine to Civilian Healthcare: From his work in conflict zones like Ukraine, Dr. Mayer discusses practices from military or disaster medicine that could benefit civilian healthcare.
• Personal Habits for Staying Centered: Sharing personal philosophies and routines, Dr. Mayer reveals the habits he relies on to maintain balance and health amidst chaos, including his top recommendation for others.

Dr. Mayer is also the author of "Leadership Is Worthless...But Leading Is Priceless," where he explores practical leadership for difficult times, drawing from his extensive experience in crisis management.

Join us for an enlightening conversation that promises to equip you with actionable strategies and profound insights into leadership, resilience, and personal growth.

We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.

Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Transcript

Dr. Spencer Baron: 0:00

From the NFL sidelines to the front lines of disaster zones. Dr Tom Mayer has led through some of the most intense crisis of our time. In this episode, he shares the pivotal moments that defined the path to the critical lessons on human resilience and collaboration from 911 and why he believes that the leader there you're looking for is you discover how trust and connection can absolutely transform leadership and learn the health and mindset practices he recommends to everyone. Stay tuned for an inspiring conversation that will challenge your perceptions of leadership and personal growth. Welcome to the show. Dr Tom Mayer, where we we know each other from a long time ago, like we talked about a little earlier, but I'm going to jump right into what an extraordinary career you had, spanning you know, emergency medicine, sports medicine and leadership in high stakes environments. And like I told you earlier, my connection with you is with my former head athletic trainer, Kevin O'Neill, who spoke volumes of cool stuff about you back then. Thank you for being on the show. Tom,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:11

oh, it's an honor, guys, first of all, and most importantly, thank you. It's an honor to be on and appreciate the chance to reconnect. You know, my wife asked me this morning, what's on your schedule? And I said, Well, I've got a conversation with the Lord so

Dr. Terry Weyman: 1:34

I can explain that my favorite guest so far.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:47

That was brilliant. That was very well put. They've been plaguing me with that, that that, never mind we'll go over that another time.

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:59

It's all downhill from here. You gotta accept it. Yeah,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 2:06

it does come with a story.

Dr. Thom Mayer: 2:08

Tom always, always,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 2:13

take us back. Take us back into a pivotal moment in your in your early in your career, where you were when you realized you were meant to, you know, to really lead during crisis, which is, you know, probably in your DNA at this point. So you know, what was that moment? What was that teaching moment like

Dr. Thom Mayer: 2:30

for you? Well, I think you know, there are multiple wins, of course, but you know, normal people when there's a fire, like Dr Terry has and his colleagues have gone through an explosion, gunshots. People that people do the sensible thing. They do, the genetically implanted thing, which is run away. Some people run towards a crisis. It's it's just in their DNA. It's just in the combination of training, but also just an innate way of saying, you know, I don't want there to be a problem, I don't want there to be a crisis. I don't want there to be a disaster, but when there is, I want to be there. I want to be the one in charge, to be able to say, while everyone else's heart rate goes up. Mine goes down, and so do my colleagues. You know the book we'll talk about, I'm sure, but talks about lessons from many things, but 911 was certainly a an emblematic moment. You know, you get a call to be asked to do something, and I think I always get, you know, how did you end up at the Pentagon? And the answer is, I think all of us in the healing profession, our guests, were invited to help take care of people, and I was invited to go to the Pentagon and become the command physician by another physician. So they wanted somebody that could oversee all the assets and to make sure that the quote, scene was safe, we went through that on the Potomac River last night in terms of the search and rescue operation. But it's it's a skill, but it's also something that that people have kind of inside them waiting to be uncovered when the crisis occurs. And as you know, we're all always in crisis now, no matter what we do in life, and no matter what role we might have, whether in the healing professions or raising a child or or, you know, educating ourselves and our our teams in which we work. So it's just continued. And I would say, I've continued to learn from it. That's

Dr. Spencer Baron: 4:44

for sure, growing up. Do you remember a moment that you said, Hey, I think this is something that turns me on and that you want to do it as a profession? Yeah,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 4:55

you know, I would say. And it's seems a little strange. But that happened for me very young. And people say you wanted to be a doctor when you're very young, my answer is, No, I didn't want to be a doctor. I was a linebacker. And you know, when you're the when you're the middle linebacker, you know you're it because

Dr. Terry Weyman: 5:16

you'd like to hurt people, not fix people. Yeah, I mean

Dr. Thom Mayer: 5:20

job description, blow stuff up, you know, blow up whatever the offense has got in mind and disrupt, you know, to me, a doctor, I'll tell that story if you want. But, but, you know, a doctor was somebody who sewed my lacerations up, and I had a bunch of those, or put his finger someplace I didn't want it. And said, Turn your head and cough. It's like, yeah, I want to do that all day. That sounds like a lot of fun, you know. So it really came from football. It came from that sense of, hey, I want to be in charge. I want to be the guy making the cross. I want to be blowing stuff up and disrupting plays. So kind of a strange pathway to that.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 6:01

Is great. Oh my gosh. So So what have you learned along the way? You know, being in that leadership position to want to be in charge of minimizing all crisis? What are the things? Well,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 6:14

I would say the not to plug a book. But as you know, the title of my last book is, leadership is worthless, but leading is priceless. And the reason I say that is leadership is a noun. It's just something you say, and anybody can say anything, and a lot of people do, but leading is priceless because it's what you do all day, every day, and that's just not the people with the titles, not the C suite, it's the people who do the work, the we suite. So everyone is a leader. You know, too many people in too many organizations are what I call the boss. The boss is someone who thinks that it's his job to be the most important person in the room. And the leader is a person who understands that it's her job to make sure that everybody else in the room feels that they're the most important person in the room. So the answers are not above us. They're within and among us. So, you know, I think, don't aspire to be a leader you already are, no matter what you do, whether it's somebody who answers the phones in your offices, you know a secretary, a single mom, they're just as much a leader as the CEO of an organization, the CEO of a healthcare system, you know a banker. So helping people understand and embrace that and move from the wistful, worthless word someday, someday I'll be a leader, to the actionable, valuable word today, today, I am a leader. The question is, how will I lead? You know, in

Dr. Spencer Baron: 7:57

front of you bring up when I was in with the Marlins during their first World Series, it just seemed like everybody was excited. And there's so many leaders and, you know, big time players and everything. But then when, with when the dolphins went one win, 16 losses, that's where you really saw who had leadership qualities, like the Jason Taylor's and stuff like that, and that's so often say we you know, if you want to know who the real leaders are, look to a losing team and see who starts every game 100%

Dr. Thom Mayer: 8:33

Bill Belichick said famously, character, I'm sorry, talent sets the floor of a team, but character sets the ceiling of a team. And, you know, he's got a lot of rings to show for that and and that's what he cultivated. I mean, people talk about the Patriot way, there was, there wasn't a patriot way identified, but it was identified as people went through it. So not a lot of slogans on the walls, but simply, he chose people with the character to be able to produce. I mean, look, he coached the, I would say, the three greatest players in respective categories. We, you know, three phases, offense, defense, special teams, offense. He coached some guy. I can't remember his name, Brady. Brady, that was it did pretty well. Well, you know who was what, which player was taken, a player 199, in the draft? Well, that would be Tom. Brady, yeah. Okay, so best defensive player, most people would say, when he coached the Giants, he coached, you know, a linebacker of international wrecking disrupting, you know, blowing stuff up and and then what people don't realize, special teams. Very important, critically important. Matthew Slater, who just. Retired last year. Bill would tell you, and almost anybody who knows football well, by far the best special teams player that to ever play the game and and so that's pretty good credentials. Everybody thinks about the Super Bowls and Brady, but you know, Lawrence Taylor was a pretty good wrecker of offenses. Oh

Dr. Spencer Baron: 10:22

yeah, no, kid, hey, let's talk about human resilience, which I love that topic, and you've played, you know, some serious key roles in responding to major crisis, including, you know, 911 COVID, 19 pandemic. What's some critical lessons about human resilience and collaboration that those moments taught you. Yeah,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 10:41

I did a book on called battling healthcare burnout, learning to love the job you have while creating the job you love. And the reason I wrote it is because there was plenty of stuff out there on burnout, but their definitions of burnout were a book long, a chapter long, even a paragraph long. You know, I'm an emergency physician. I have AD, what were we talking about? Sorry, sorry. So I gotta, first of all, I think definitions should drive solutions, so that by defining something, I'm telling you how you can fix it, because otherwise that's not going to help me. And to me, it was very simple. Burnout is just a ratio of job stressors divided by resilience, but I prefer to call that adaptive capacity, and I'll say why in a minute. So if I want to lower burnout among healthcare providers, bankers, lawyers, any profession. How do I do it? Well, you know, our fourth grade kids, in my case, grandkids, would tell you, Well, you make sure that the denominator, I mean the numerator, is high, so you are low, meaning lower the job stressors, or you increase the resilience or adaptive capacity. So resilience. The problem I have with that word, not the concept, is if I say emergency physicians, 63% of which have burnout, if I say to an emergency physician, the reason you're burned out is you're not resilient enough there. You know what we say, what we hear. You guys know this in your professions, widely different many times, because what I said was, you know, resilience is the issue, and what they think when I say that is, I'm the problem. Are you kidding me? I'm the problem. So I use the term adaptive capacity more. And the reason it goes back to a football story, almost everything does for me when I was in college. My freshman year, I started at middle linebacker, which was very unusual because we played a four, three, and essentially what we now call a Tampa two defense, one middle linebacker in the middle. And so you're calling the signals. And you know, freshmen, they'd never had a freshman do that before. Before the first game, the defensive coordinator, you could tell he was nervous. You know, I'd never done this, he had recommended to the head coach, let's, let's put mayor in there. And so before the game, we're doing the walk through. And he all of a sudden, he stops for the whole team. He says, Mayor, my linebackers are agile, mobile and hostile. What do you think of that? I said, Oh, coach, that's me. I'm agile, I'm mobile, I'm hostile, but I'm the mic. I'm the middle linebacker. I gotta read and react. I gotta have my head on a swivel. I gotta adapt, adapt, adapt all game long. He thought for a second, and he turned to the team and said, My linebackers are agile, mobile, hostile and adaptile, and and he used that. And so that I think when I hear resilience, I hear adapt, I'll, you know, be ready to adapt to the situation. And I think that can be grown and developed, but if we don't, particularly those in leading positions, which is all of us, don't lower the job stressors at the same time, make the work easier, then we're in trouble. Beautiful.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 14:13

You know, you often emphasize the importance of trust in leadership, trust and you know, and connection. And I when you, when I think of that, and your your belief in that, I think of Bill Parcells and his commitment. I mean, you know, I went through 12 coaches during my tenure, since the, you know, Shula era, and without getting into details of some of them, but Parcells, even though he was like Vice President of Operations for us, that now I really understood why people would break through walls for that guy. So you know for you personally to cultivate trust, trust amongst teams, but also within yourself when facing a tough decision, how do you do it? Well,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 14:58

I always tell leaders, um. I you know, people aspire to be leaders. Want me to coach and things like that, but I always say, Look, you only have to do three things. You have to think about leading versus leadership in a radically different way. You have to act on that within a week, because if you don't, if people hear your podcast, if they don't, they may be entertained, but if they don't do something differently within a week, they're not going to do it, not because they're bad folks, but because that's human nature. I was a theology major, if you can imagine that theology, middle linebacker that. Yeah, of course, that makes perfect sense.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 15:35

You send them to meet God? Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Thom Mayer: 15:38

Well, in my case, a conversation with the Lord. But, oh, you know, there we go. Got a

Dr. Terry Weyman: 15:43

break so hard that they see, God, yeah, exactly, exactly. We call that

Dr. Thom Mayer: 15:48

depleting, depleting so. But the third is to innovate, because the way we're working isn't working. That's why people listen to your podcast. To think new ideas, new ways of doing things. But innovation doesn't occur. No offense to Elon Musk and Bezos and all those guys, doesn't occur at the speed of intelligence, genius or creativity. It occurs at the Speed of Trust, because if people don't trust you, they won't step outside the lines. And how many times does a boss say, I want you to think outside the box? You know old New Yorker cartoon, you probably remember guys looking at his cat and says, Never, ever think outside the box. But, but when the boss says that what they usually, they don't mean it. They don't mean think outside the box, that what they really mean is, think inside my box, think the way, guess what, I'm thinking. And that's no way to run an organization. It's no way to live so that without trust, we can't innovate, we can't step outside of the way we're working, which isn't working, or we wouldn't be burned out. We wouldn't need resilience. So I don't think you can that a full chapter in the book is innovation at the Speed of Trust and the ability to generate, foster and create teams in which trust is a fundamental asset of the team. Because, as you guys know, how long does it take to develop trust? You know, days, weeks, months, years. How long does it take to destroy it? One second. Yeah, one second. And that's when the words and the music don't match the the boss, not the leader, says one thing and does quite another. Let's

Dr. Spencer Baron: 17:35

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Dr. Thom Mayer: 19:17

Well, the first is what I said before, don't aspire to be a leader. You already are a leader. Question is, how will you lead? What will guide you? How will you say? What you do? Are you trustworthy? But the second is, you know, Vince Lombardi once said something very, very interesting, which is, I may not always like my players, but I must always love them. Mike, shasky, Coach K told me the same thing in different ways, and that is, you can't coach someone. You can't help someone if you don't know them. And so each year he has to learn more and more and more. I mean, some of them he already knows, but a lot of them, as you know, in this one and done era. Uh, come in and they're there for a year, and off to the pros. So that that ability to get to know people, not just their titles, that means nothing. That just tells you, where do you occupy a space on an org chart, which to me, I always say, Don't show me the org chart. Let me watch you working for about 15 minutes. And I'll tell you what the org chart is. And I'll tell you. You know, they say, here's our mission, vision and values in our culture. And I'll say, now watch. I'll tell you what the culture is. I'll tell you what it's really like in the trenches. So you know, it's not the words on the walls that matter. It's the happenings in the halls. So as you coach yourself and others, your kids, as you are coached by your kids, by the team. That's a fundamental understanding of these are these are people. And unless you understand those people, there's no such thing as coaching in the abstract.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 20:54

Yeah, hey, Tom I want to go back to something you kind of, you brushed a con, you wrote a book about it. I want to go a little deeper, and that's the word burnout, because I think it's a become a buzzword across the industry, and like you alluded to, it's kind of used in incorrectly, or it's, it's, it's been wired down a little bit. And to get a little deeper on that, in your experience, some of the misconceptions that you've kind of run across. How would you redefine it and to create a conversation? Because to be honest with you, that's how Spencer and I first reconnected probably 20 years ago. I was feeling burned out, and I sat them down, I go, I don't want to do this anymore, and we had a great lunch over it. And so what would be a I think a lot of people are feeling burned out. They don't know what they want to do they don't want to reinvent themselves or whatever. So what's some guidelines you have for those people they're facing?

Dr. Thom Mayer: 21:46

Oh sure. Well, first of all, my great friend Christina Maslach and her writing partner, research partner, Michael Leiter, years ago in the 70s, described the three symptoms of burnout, and those as you know, are emotional exhaustion, cynicism and a loss of meaning at work and and I agree that, you know, we and you and your job and me and mine, we don't treat symptoms. We treat diseases. We treat the underlying cause. I mean, I don't have to tell you guys, nobody comes to see you unless they have problems, they didn't have pain, they wouldn't be there in the first place. And so getting to the underlying problem, yes, it treats their pain, but it addresses the issue. Give you an example if I if I go to people and say, don't be so emotionally exhausted, don't be so cynical. Recapture your meaning at work. What the hell are they supposed to do with that? It's like I would have already done that if I knew that. So that's why I go back to that ratio of, how do we decrease the job stressors? How do we increase the resilience, adaptive capacity in a way that makes the job enjoyable, because what we're trying to do is, if you make people's lives easier, this is fundamentally what I would call change leadership, not change management, because management is keeping the current system operating, leadership leading in times of crisis, and we are in crisis, so there wouldn't be that much burnout involves. How do we get from point A to point B in a way that's better? People don't mind change. They mind being changed. So their voices in terms of what is talk to me about what's burning you out the job stressors and how we can deal with that. How can we lower those job stressors? Talk to me about how we can help you develop adaptive capacity. And there's, I mean, mindfulness, meditate. You know, all those kinds of things can be hugely helpful. Gratitude, practice, my practice every day, when I wake up, the first thing I do is sit, look outside at the sun or the clouds, if it's clouds, and say, You know what three people am I grateful for? And then, before the day ends, shoot them an email, write them a note, call them on the phone and say, Hey, I was thinking about you this morning. I just want you to know I really appreciate you. Close the day with three good things. What three things happened today that were good things. Now there might have been 190 I mean, with your situation in LA and the fires and and we were talking offline about, you know, the repair and recovery, which is going to take, you know, a long time, three to five years. But going through that, there's still good things. You know the things that did survive, the friends whose homes didn't burn down or can be rebuilt, or whatever they might be. If you if you take three good things as a practice and compare it to Zoloft for depression, randomized clinical trial, three good things blew it out of the water. They had to stop. Of the study, because it wasn't fair to keep the Zoloft patients away from three good things about that. Yes, absolutely. I'll send you the literature. I mean, it's, it's just stunning, absolutely stunning. So I'm going to suggest that in your chiropractic practices, you undergo disciplines, and it's not like you make it up as you go. There's ways in which you do things to assess and treat a patient. Now, to be sure, there's a lot of good, important Gestalt I mean, you guys, like some of the physical therapists I know, are witch doctors. And I say that affectionately, because it's like, wow, I can't believe how much better I feel. So at the same time that you're working through the disciplines, you're also using your gestalt of having seen 1000s of patients. So, and I do the same in my practice, but the disciplines of gratitude practice, whether it's the one I described, and three good things are, you know, you don't have to get an app. You just have to say, I'm going to do this. And you know how it is, the more you do something, the better you get at it, the gratitude comes easier. Three good things come faster. And so I think those, those little details, make a big difference, and it also helps you, during the course of the day, interact with whoever you're interacting with, whether it's a family members, whether it's, you know, I'm I call somebody on the phone and, you know, I talk to the secretary, whatever you want to call. The person who answers, I don't just say this is Dr Mayer. I need to talk to Dr Terry, which a lot of people do. Unfortunately, in the medical profession, that's the case. I talk. How are you? Thanks for helping me. I really appreciate it. You know, am I? Am I BS ing them a little bit. But you know, honestly, who do you think they're going to help? You know the guy who says, I can carry or me Right, right? So when, when people, when people say, How you doing? I always answer with the same word, spectacular. I am spectacular. Now, I may not feel spectacular. I might have a toothache or a back ache or a neck ache, but you know, people always say, I've never heard that one before. And as you might guess, I fly a lot and and when I get on the plane, inevitably, the flight attendant says, how are you? And I say, spectacular. And they'll stop and go, spectacular. They don't hear that kind of thing. But who do you think gets his gin and tonic before anyone else on that airplane.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 27:42

There you go. I like, I like the word stupendous. Yeah,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 27:47

that's good,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 27:51

exactly. I don't know about you, Lord Baron, but I've been, I want to, like, write all these, no wonder you've written so many books. I have all these one liars. I just want to keep writing down. And then you told me, Well, an app won't work. I could create an app with all your one liners that would make everybody happy. So

Dr. Thom Mayer: 28:08

that's good. Feel free. That'd be fun.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 28:12

You mentioned another one liner that I kind of scribbled really quick and wrote down. And you said, innovation moves at the speed of trust. So I kind of want to go back to that one, because gaining someone's trust that is trustworthy is easy, right? And, and to get somebody that is likable is easy, but the hard ones are the ones that you know bite back or say something that pisses you off, or or acts, and, and it's the constructive criticism people, the ones that hit you hard, that you just go, I don't want to deal with that person. How do you get the trust and the happiness of the people that are hard?

Dr. Thom Mayer: 28:52

Oh, I think the more innately untrusting, not untrustworthy, but untrusting a person. It is, it's the more opportunity you have, and and I it's, it's not an abstraction. It's being concrete. You know, anything I can do to help you today, I say that to everyone, and when they say what it is, I do it right then, because maybe this is one of the one liners. Don't have to do lists, have to don't lists. And the way you have a to don't list is to do it right when you say it. And so when I talk to a secretary, chief of staff, administrative assistant, whatever the title is, and I say, anything I can do to help you, and they tell me, I say, Okay, I'll take care of it right now. And I do now. I may not, I'm not going to interrupt the phone call, but as soon as I get off, I'm going to take care of it and not put it on a list of things to do. And, you know, talk about generating trust. It's like we said it and he did it. You know, a lot of people say, if you want to be trusted, don't make promises. I think it's exactly the opposite. Make promises all the time and deliver on those four. Promises immediately, if it's going to take longer, just tell them it's going to take longer if you can't do it for some reason. And there have been plenty of things I promised that I couldn't do, then I call them back and say, you know, this is harder than I thought. Either we're going to have to go a different direction. What are your thoughts? And I think if you start I always say three things in a conversation, particularly when there's a problem, when there's an issue, burnout, resilience. Number one, I need your help. When you say, I need your help, most people are going to help you, whether they wanted to or not. Very few people are going to say, ah, pound sand. Nope, not going to happen. Because you're saying, I trust you enough to say, with my problem, I need your help. Number two, what would have to be true for this to happen? What would have to be true for you to feel less burned out when you have that conversation with people who are suffering from that. And then the third is, once you've come to a decision, particularly in teams, and we're all working in teams all day, every day, a family is a team. A marriage is a team. You know, yes, your offices are teams. You work within the broader healthcare team, certainly as an emergency physician, that's a team of people working together. But once it's been decided what it is that's a better way if that makes their job easier. Because if it's if it doesn't make their job easier, they're not going to do it, or they're not going to sustain it. I always ask the question at the end, is there anybody in this room that can't fully commit to what we not? I we as a team, just decided, because, you know, you get rid of some of that, people who walk out and go, I was, Bs, we shouldn't have done that. No, you just agreed that you were going to do it. So, you know, I need your help. What would have to be true, and is there anybody who can't fully commit to this

Dr. Terry Weyman: 31:56

brilliant I got one more expense you get. You hear people all the time saying, find your why, right, and what's your innovation or your way of once, if they go I don't know what my why is.

Dr. Thom Mayer: 32:12

Well, here's first of all, I if I haven't already signed and personalized and sent books to you, just let me know where to send them. Obviously, it'll be two different mailing addresses, but my my brilliant wife and I had three boys now, young men. When they were younger, I used to take them to school every day I was in town, and I said as they got out of the truck, precisely the same thing, which is one more step in the journey of discovering where your deep joy intersects the world's deep needs. I swear I said this to them. They prefer to take the bus. Trust me, they don't want to hear that, particularly from your dad. You might tolerate it from your mom, but from your dad. My point is, you know our lives are a process of discovering that deep joy, but you have to start with the deep joy, not the world's deep needs. You know, you guys did what you did for a reason. It was your deep joy. You discovered that over a period of time, I certainly didn't want to be a doctor until I was in halfway through college talk about that story, if we have time, but, but the question is, don't focus on the world's deep needs. There that's infinite. It's there's no bottom to that well and sometimes unfathomable. People don't even know what their deep need is, and yet, come to you and me and others to try to get it taken care of. So to me, your deep joy is the why. I'm sure you know that, to my knowledge, originally comes from Nietzsche, who said, He who has a strong enough why can bear almost any how. And so you guys will ask me, you know, Hey, Tom, what's your deep joy, my deep joy is helping others discover, fully embrace and fully live their deep joy, whatever that is. Because, you know, I can't tell them what to do. I can't say, hey, become an emergency physician or or a chiropractor. You know, that's up to them to discover it. And it is. It's not a destination. It's a journey. Of course, I get this question, you know, what if my deep joy changes? Great, you know, now you got a new set of skills that you can learn a new, new way to begin your life over and again in a different vein. You know, you guys, at some level, are pain management specialists. You're helping people deal with their pain, with the anatomic, physiologic, psychological, spiritual issues. And so I would say you guys are as much behavioral health specialists as you are physical health specialists. So. As you know, some of the greatest player every NFL team has a chiropractor. Everyone. Yeah, the best running back in the history of the NFL traveled with his own chiropractor to every away game. Emmett Smith, number 22 I saw Emmett at the last Super Bowl I'm going to see him in, what? 10 days? Yeah,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 35:24

yeah. He actually, he wrote a book. There was an autobiography on him. And he mentions, he mentions the character, but he also mentions that Kevin O'Neill was someone who motivated him to score one of the winning, you know, Super Bowl score, or something like that, that. And he was broken down. But he said, Come on, one more play. You know, one more play. What a great story of inspiration and motivation. Well,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 35:53

to the trainers, you know, I'm a union doctor. I mean, it is NFL, NFL PA, with the NFL, PA, which is a union you know, you'd think, you know, we're at each other's throats. You're not going to find any doctor in the NFL or anywhere else who's more supportive of our trainers. And if you talk to the great orthopedic surgeons of our time, Jim Anderson, deal, elitrace, John Uribe, and in Florida, they'll tell you. You know that the not just the physical therapists, but the trainers who help these guys recover from the surgeries I do, are equally important and perhaps even more important, because if you think about it, these guys have spent their whole life getting to a place that everyone except their parents, in some cases and coaches told them, you're never going to make it. You know, you're a great peewee player, but wait till you get to junior high. Yeah, you're pretty good. But, you know, there's five junior highs that feed into this high school and on and on and on, and they've always lived at the on the right end of the excellence end of the bell shaped curve suddenly, ACL tear, Achilles tear, high ankle sprain, you know, concussion and that dream is interrupted. Sometimes it's not, it's a permanent interruption. But who's going to get them back? Yeah, all the guys I mentioned, superb at the surgery that they do, but it's, you know, showing up every day for physical therapy, showing up with the trainer, the encouragement. I mean, they're as much psychotherapists as anyone on the planet. No offense to psychotherapists.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 37:34

Hey, Tom I want to go back to the trust thing, because, you know, I've always been fascinated by there's two groups of people. There's the ones that you know, you meet them and they they trust, but you got to pick away at that trust before they don't trust you. And then there's the ones that that reserve trust, and you got to earn their trust. I've noticed over the years, you know you, you know you might call the ones that give you that trust right away. It might be gullible, but they learn painfully, but they learn. I often refer to it as a emotional bank account. I agree. Love that term. Love it Yeah. And so, why do you think people trust you?

Dr. Thom Mayer: 38:17

Because I deliver. I mean, I have one of my residents not too long ago said, you know, I was working clinically. And residents said, Well, Dr, Mary, you can be a little bit imperious. And I said, What? So you guys get word jokes. You get word jokes. Resident didn't get that at all. You know, one of the other attendings took him aside and said, you know, but this, you know, I take my hat off, but the Claire alone, would, you know? So that adds to that. But I think it's promises made, promises kept. And the the, you know, if someone says, Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be trustworthy by not making very many promises, doesn't work that way. You know, just doesn't work that way. And the more promises you make and the more you deliver, I got a call yesterday from a former player, very prominent person, who's traveling. Shocker, that's his business now, and his son is in the emergency department. And, you know, Doc, what do I do? I said, Well, which emergency department? And he told me, and I said, I'll call right now. I'll call you right back in a few minutes. I didn't say I'll call someday. I mean, it's an emergency department, and, you know, do those people in that emergency department know me? Know the doctor in the phone didn't answer the phone? You know, I got to get through the Secretary and the nurse. Now, if you think your doctor, that's not going to work, no. So I got to spend invest some time. I'm not spending time. I'm investing time in developing trust for them to take the call. And the doc was great. Couldn't have been nicer. You know, are you kidding? This? Is he said or she? I'm sorry. Said. Are you the Dr? Tom Mayer. Her, and I said, Well, I don't know. Is a wanted poster in Georgia for me or what I mean? Let's think about that before I answer that one for you. But literally, I'm telling you, maybe 12 minutes it took me to call it the guy back and say, Hey, fine, here's what they're doing. That's what I do. That was a member of my family. That's exactly what I do. And so, you know, people said, I don't have time for that is perhaps the most idiotic statement I've ever heard. You know, because it's not a waste of time. It's an investment of time in trust and and not just the big things. That was a pretty big thing for for that player, and more importantly, for his wife, as you might guess, who I also called on the phone and said, because I said, you know, Hey, you want me to call your wife? No, no, no, that's okay. I said, give me your number. I'm going to call her. I'm not asking you. I'm going to call her. And of course, you know, the mom is even more concerned than the dad, so and then you know they're going through the guilt of they're not there because they're not in the town that the sun was in in that emergency department. So, you know, big things come from little things. I just think life, as I say in the book, is a lot simpler than we think it is.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 41:12

You know, I'm going to interrupt for that before Spencer can say, I'm going to pat him on the back a little bit. He his favorite thing is about that, going, if you tell me you don't have time for something, then, then there's something wrong, you know, he goes, You should never, if it's important enough, you'll find the time. And I always appreciate that from him, because he if you say you're busy, you'll get under his skin in a heartbeat, yeah.

Dr. Thom Mayer: 41:36

Oh, Tom Brady feels that, if you've haven't seen some of his speeches, he talks about that all the time. You know, I'll tell you Tommy was, I mean, he's, he's a good friend. And you know, people say, Well, you know, you're name dropping. No, it's name dropping, if I don't know. But you listen to his speeches, he'll talk with vehements about the importance of doing the work, and doing the work means showing up. And don't tell me you don't have time, because he was the first one in the building in the morning and the last one out in the afternoon as well. So it's I get that, and I'm not surprised that they say that about you. Thanks.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 42:15

Thanks. You know, I learned so much from certain coaches, and I mentioned Parcells, but he tells us, he told me this story when we were sitting in the dining room one day. He said that one of the players was acting and one of his players was acting up. And, you know, he had a lot of talent, but he could have gotten himself in legal trouble if he wasn't careful. So Parcells pulls him off to the side, and he tells him, he goes, Look, son, you got a lot of talent, but if you screw up again, I'm calling your mother.

Unknown: 42:48

Classic sales knew how to get that is classic bill, right,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 42:53

right? And so the guy, the kid, reacted exactly how. And this is like a big, bulky, you know, you know professional player, right? Oh yeah, and the kid and the and the kid goes, Don't, don't. Don't call my mom. Please, don't, don't call my mom. And he goes, Well, you better straighten up, right? Yeah, you know what Bill did that night. His mother, yes, called his mother and said, Mrs. So and So, I just want you know this is, this is Coach Parcells. And she goes, Oh, coach. He goes, You have a great kid on your hands. And I got my eye on, I'm taking good care of him. And brilliant dad spoke the next day, so he knew it was he followed through. That's bill,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 43:41

right? Oh, yeah. And people, to this day, former players, people coached under him, including Belichick, call him up and ask him his opinion. Hey, Coach, what do you think? I'll give you a corollary to it. I talked to my coach, K about this and and I said, What's the most important part of the recruiting process, because you seem to get, you know, year after year after year, the you know, the character, the quality of people. And he chuckled and said, you know, Doc, I always insist on a home visit. And you know, the kid, of course, thinks I'm there to talk to him. I'm there to see how he treats his mother, Isn't that brilliant?

Dr. Terry Weyman: 44:24

Brilliant, wow. And I am still using that with doctors. Baron, if he acts up, I'm going to tell him, I'm going to call him, call your mother. That's right, because I love his mother and she loves me, so I'm going to use that, oh, that's brilliant. Don't call my mom. Dr Terry, oh, I'm going to call your mom. She gave me her home phone number. I'm calling

Dr. Thom Mayer: 44:44

your mom. Oh,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 44:49

man, all right, so let me, let me ask you a couple things sure, you know, I mean the fact that you've worked in conflict zone, you know, like some like Ukraine, and unique challenges. Challenges that you experiences in those areas. You know, military disaster or, you know, from the military to disaster medicine. I mean, what do you think benefit would benefit? You know, some of our listeners in the world of healthcare, if they can, if there's one thing that they could adopt today or widely, whether you know, it's a protocol, procedure, a mental, physical thing. Well, anything pop out at you? Yeah,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 45:26

I think that you know to loop back to things, because I always see things as interconnected where perhaps others don't or don't see it as much. Know your deep joy. Know what your skill set is. Know what you're good at, know what you're not good at make failure your fuel. You know, I learned that from a lot of different people. Tom Brady among them, he can tell you, I mean, there were six quarterbacks taken ahead of him in the draft. He can tell you their name, their stats, what round, what team they played for, and he will proudly tell you that he beat every single one of them when they went head to head. So he never stopped proving he made failure. 1/99 in the in the seventh round his fuel to be able to work better. Abby Wambach says the same thing. If you've not seen her, Barnard College Speech, commencement speech. It's on YouTube. 22 minutes and 48 seconds of gold, platinum stuff. Abby and I spoke several times at different meetings. I was the warm up act, of course, appropriately so, but so, you know, walk in and and, you know, I always say, pause, reflect, reconsider. Pause, reflect, reconsider. When someone says, you know, you walked into the Pentagon, you flew to Ukraine, you know, you became the first medical director for the NFL Players Association. You know, in the midst of the chaos, right before the elevator doors open and I walk up to the helicopter to be able to either get on it and go somewhere or come off the doors of the helicopter, I pause, I reflect about, you know, what's my deep joy? What are their biggest concerns? Anxiety is going to be and reconsider, what do I need to do? Because, you know, old things, your mom's told you, the same thing, you never get a second chance to make a first impression. So when you when you guys, see a patient, and you walk into the room for the first time, I learned this from being on aircraft carriers. I was there as a guest because of the work I'd done at the Pentagon, trying to figure out, you know, what they were doing that could help us in healthcare, and what we were doing that might be able to help them. So if you think about it, they taxi, which is trust. They those on an aircraft carrier. They don't call themselves pilots. They're aviators, naval and marine aviators. But they're not watching where they're going. They're watching the signal guy who's giving them a signal to lock them on to the to the cat catapult to send them off the end. You'd think, you know, hey, I'm, I'm an aviator. This is, I'll tell you where I'm taking. This airplane doesn't work that way. Second part is to take off when we walk into a patient's room for the first time, we have a sacred opportunity to help people. It's safe. We we live on sacred ground, the sacred ground of healers interacting with patients. And when it comes to the first time, I always tell my audiences, don't make it up. You know. Know what you're going to say. Know what you're going to do. For an emergency physician, they'd say, you know, Doc, just tell me one thing. I know you got a lot of stuff. Tell me one thing, sit down. Don't stand at the at the foot of the bed in a white coat, which I wear, standing like this with my imperious face. You know what my body language is saying. I'm closed. You can't come in whatever you got. I don't want I don't want to be near you. And instead of you, sit down and tell them who you are, I'm Dr Mayer. I'm your emergency physician. Really sorry you had to come to the ER today, but I'm delighted that I'm going to be your doctor. I'm board certified in emergency medicine, pediatric emergency medicine and sports medicine, we're going to figure things out. You know, we have a great team of people here, but you the patient, are the most important part of this team, you know? Yeah, so you don't they. I don't have to guess what I said, you know. And trust me, how did I learn this? I did it wrong so many times, but I made failure my fuel to figure out, how do I get better? And give you an example, I think that one of the most toxic, demeaning, satanic terms I've ever heard is future leader. Future leader, like you're a leader, but I someday might be a leader. There's that toxic word again, someday. You know, I spoke to a group of 1000 CEOs and led off with, you know, don't ever call someone a future leader. I guess I probably should have looked up and realized that I was speaking to what they called The Future Leaders Conference. It. See that would have been good to know ahead of time. But I can't tell you how many people reached out to me and said, I never, I never occurred to me. Now, developing leader, emerging leader, improving leader. Gosh, I hope I know you guys are. I hope I am one of those. I want to get better every day by learning making mistakes and learning from making failure my fuel. But I think those are the things that matter the most. Oh,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 50:29

Dr, Terry, does he have more perfect one liners to guide you through? I mean, I've never heard anything like, Yeah, this is

Dr. Thom Mayer: 50:37

my wife tells me my next book should be entitled or should be titled. Everyone is entitled to my opinion. Yeah, I gotta, gotta see if a publisher will go there. I don't know about

Dr. Terry Weyman: 50:47

that. I'll buy it right now. Fantastic.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 50:54

I gotta, I got a bit of a challenging question for you regarding chaos and something that people can embrace, because, you know, there's chaos going on all over the place. People perceive chaos when others don't, and yet they're still experiencing the same event. But what might be a habit that you could recommend, or you might suggest people to adopt, or they can adopt, that would help guide them through some of the chaos and uncertainty? Yeah,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 51:24

so a great it's a great question, and it is a challenging question for most people. You know, they use the term chaos, and I say, well, give me an example. Tell me what's chaos. And then I essentially try to drill down and get to what you already made the connection uncertainty. Now is there certainty and chaos? Absolutely. If you study it, if you learn from it, if you look at how it's really connections that other people don't see or haven't invested the time to circle back to what we were talking about, to see the connections that are there. You know, we live in a time right now where trauma, and I'm not talking about, you know, in my trauma bay, in the emergency department, but, but childhood trauma, psychological trauma, is a big issue and important. Well, you know, they're going to see chaos, where I might not see chaos. Why? Because they view the world fundamentally as an unsafe place. And so once you understand that for those people who've undergone that kind of trauma, it might be the trauma of having seen 15 doctors for their back or neck pain before they finally come to see you and to them, that's the chaos of health care that can't find the answer to the root cause and the treatment that they need to have. So I think it's looking at and seeing connections, and once those connections start to be made, it's like an enzymatic reaction accelerates the pace of your ability to bring calm to chaos, which I would say at the risk, considerable risk of hubris. My career has been trying to bring calm to chaos by seeing connections that not everyone sees, and to be able to turn that into a discipline, the things that you do not just you know, hey, that's a confusing world. It's, it's, it's always confusing until you understand it. And and understanding typically doesn't come easy. You know the easy lessons are are typically less valuable than the ones that take some effort, some let's use the word suffering to get through but the suffering usually comes from not being able to know what to do, not being able to see the calm and chaos, the connections and chaos, and taking the time to do it. You know, gratitude in the morning, three good things in the evening. I

Dr. Spencer Baron: 53:52

remember asking the base Major League Baseball Pitcher Cole Hamels one day working on his shoulder, and I said to him, I go, Hey, man, you know it's bottom of the ninth. You know, you guys are, you know? Are? You know, one home run ahead. You're pitching. Bases are loaded. You know, it's three balls, two strikes. That next pitch means the game to you, you know, and how do you feel? I gotta tell you Tom I I've never look I even get goosebumps right now. Yeah, he looked at me, and he goes, I got this. And he I go, how is that possible? You're on the mound, you're it's a home game, you're in the middle of the world. Everybody's looking at you, and everything means that next pitch. And he broke it down to something that was so simple that, you know, the odds are in his favor. You know, the best hitter in the world may have a 300 batting average, yeah, fail

Dr. Thom Mayer: 54:54

two out of three times you're in the Hall of Fame. Right,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 54:58

right? So you. You're right. It's perception and how you could, if you can understand what's going on or slow things down, then you can manage them so much better.

Dr. Thom Mayer: 55:09

Well, I'll tell you a story that it fits and just share it with Cole when you see him the next time, because it fits perfectly. I mean, he felt I'm in the right place. I spent my whole life, my whole career, to get to this place. You know, people say, perfect game. Yeah, that's fine. That's not going to happen very often, but, you know, two outs bottom of the ninth, base is loaded. That's what a real pitcher strives for. So we're in Ukraine, and it was voluntary. I wasn't drafted to go to Ukraine. All of our team, a great team of people, volunteered to go to Ukraine. And two thirds of the way through the through the deployment. One morning, we were a mobile Emergency Response Team. So every morning, we got up early, saddled up, and then went wherever the patients were. And you know, we weren't in the hospital or clinic, we went wherever they were being housed. And one morning, just getting ready to go downstairs and three su 27 flanker aircraft. I'm just going to pull this up so you can see it, Ukrainian aircraft, just like that. That's a flanker went by my window. I was on the second floor. It blew the windows out of the dorm, and quickly followed by four Russian rockets who hit about three and a half blocks from us. And as I ran downstairs, it was just me, because the team was still in the cafeteria and was running towards the site this smoke boiling off the horizon. I quickly took a picture. Fast Forward, we got back, and Pam Brown, with CNN, wanted to interview me. And I said, Fine. And for some reason she put up that picture and she told the story, and I said, you know, I was running. And she said, What were you thinking when you were running towards smoke off the horizon to try to help? And I said, before I could think, I thought I'm in the right place. And the question I always have for my audiences, because, as you know, I do a lot of public speaking, is, are you in the right place? And I think Cole would tell you I was in the right place. You know, it wasn't pressure. It was a privilege to be in Ukraine. It wasn't pressure for for call. It was a privilege to be the guy on the mound. Love

Dr. Spencer Baron: 57:27

this stuff. This is great, right? Wow, fantastic. Oh, okay, well, we're going to switch gears, and we're going into some of our favorite parts of this, of our the end of our program, it's called the rapid fire questions, which is right up your alley, anything that has to do with immediacy? Yes, perfect for you. I'm

Dr. Thom Mayer: 57:49

right, wrong, but never in doubt.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 57:54

There's another one. Dr, Terry,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 57:58

my list is like this long. Yeah, now, right?

Dr. Spencer Baron: 58:02

So we got five questions. We always say to answer briefly, but we always get hung up on some cool, you know, answer that you might might provide. But if you're ready for question number one, I'm gonna fire away. You ready Tom fire away, all right, if you could swap careers for one day with any NFL player, Pastor, President, who would it be? And why Dick

Dr. Thom Mayer: 58:27

Bucha? Because he was my idol when I was growing up. And I actually went to the bears training camp before I went to medical school. And they disabused me of that notion very quickly. They said, you don't have the size, speed, strength, something else. Oh, talent, talent. They said I had no talent. So Dick Bucha,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 58:48

that's great. That's great. Tom, question number two, what one book or movie that is probably profoundly shaped how you approach leadership or crisis management? For that matter,

Dr. Thom Mayer: 59:01

I would say movie Oppenheimer definitely, because if you think about it, you know, he didn't invent the atomic bomb. He didn't come up with the formulas that Unleashed that, but he coordinated the team of people, a team of massive egos and complexity. And I think Chris Nolan captures that well, book, I would say, people ask me, Hey, Doc, what book should I read? And they're always surprised I don't say some business book, or read one of mine, or all those things. Harry the David McCullough, who was a friend before he passed away. Biography of Truman is unsurpassed. And if you like, audit audible, he actually read the and it's about 14 hours the book for Audible before he passed away. It's, it's lyrical, and I think Truman is still an underrated president. Wow.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 59:57

I love it. Very inspiring. Okay, thanks. Good. Them. Question number three, you've worked under and test pressure that's intense pressure is probably your middle name. And what's the quirkiest or most surprising thing that you do to unwind after a long day?

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:00:14

Oh, you know, I'll tell you the quirkiest thing I ever said in just a second. But, but, you know, beer and popcorn, I find that massively therapeutic. Works out really well. Now, here's the quirkiest thing I ever said. There was a shooting at the CIA a number of years ago. A guy, Pakistani guy, right outside the CIA, and I drove past his car, 28 minutes before he got out of that car and started opening fire. I just happened to be going down to Reagan airport, and at any rate, you know, my radio went off and all that stuff. I go back to the emergency department. He lets me use his name, Nick Starr CIA employee was shot in his car and his left arm was almost completely severed, and he was flown in by the police helicopter unit, of which I was the chairman of the department at the time and the medical director for the police helicopter unit. He got 28 units of blood of O negative in our emergency department before he even got to the operating room. And that's a massive, massive amount. For some reason, they said there's only one person that's going to talk to the press, and there were a bunch of them, and that's you. And so I walked out, and they're asking me questions. And you probably know that you can often hear in the earpiece of the reporter the question the producer is asking. So there's a big thing, you know, donate blood, donate blood, all that kind of stuff. I said, Yeah, he got 28 units of O negative. And I heard the producer say in her ear, ask him, What blood type Mr. Star was no clue, but here's what came out of my mouth. Well, we got 28 units of O negative. I don't know what blood type he was before, but he's OH negative now, police chief, police chief calls me on the phone, and I thought, Well, this has been fun. You know, I hang up my badge and all that. He said, Tom, that is the funniest thing I've ever heard a real person say.

Unknown: 1:02:20

That's brilliant.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:02:22

That was great. Oh, man, thanks for sharing that one. Sorry, I almost forgot where I was at here. Question number

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:02:30

four, number four,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:02:34

you got it if you had to choose one front row seat at the Super Bowl a week long backpacking trip in a remote wilderness or a backstage pass to a live, Rolling Stone concert. Which one would you pick? And why? Oh, the

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:02:50

backpacking trip? Definitely, no way, really, because I've done the other two. So of course, you have, right? We live in Wyoming. We love to hike. We love, you know, one of our boys, when he was eight years old, we were hiking a it's called hanging canyon in the Tetons, very, very stressful hike. And he said, you know, to me and Maureen both said, you know, it's good thing. I like hiking, or I would have been born in the wrong family. So I'll take the backpacking trip. Beautiful,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:03:20

really? Oh, Tom I'm going to end with number five, and it's usually the most endearing one. It's, what do you want? What do you want to be remembered for?

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:03:33

He helped. He helped. I was in trouble, and he helped me. And you know, that's not in the emergency department or, you know, a disaster management scene. It's just, you know, my wife, my kids now, my grandkids, you guys. I always say, you know, ask my audience, what do you think I want people to do when they hear my name, see my face, and they get it right every time, and the answer is, and you dance it the same way, smile, but just want them to smile.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:04:05

We have learned so much today from Dr Tom Mayer, you are really extraordinary in your field, but you know philosophically, you know the life experiences that you share are so engaging and motivating. So thanks so much.

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:04:25

Oh, thank you. Listen. I do a lot of podcasts, and so this ain't my first rodeo, as we say in Wyoming, you guys are very good at this, so congratulations. You bring out the best in your guests. I know from listening to previous podcasts, but thank you. It's an honor. I will say to your audience, if I can help you, I will reach out by I'll give you my email, personal email, T, H, O, M, M, a, y, E, R, M, D, at Gmail. So just Tom Mayer, MD, spelled kind of funny. Uh, shoot me an email. I'll help you, if I can

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:05:03

that book you got coming out. Give us the title. Leadership

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:05:07

is worthless, but leading is priceless. What I learned from 911 of the NFL and Ukraine, I

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:05:15

love it. Thank you. Tom

Dr. Thom Mayer: 1:05:17

Absolutely thank you, of course. Thank

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:05:22

you for listening to today's episode of The cracking backs podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at cracking backs podcast. Catch new episodes every Monday. See you next time you.