The Crackin' Backs Podcast

Carbon Monoxide in Endurance Sports??? | Dr. Nathan Bryan Explains

• Dr. Terry Weyman and Dr. Spencer Baron

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In this compelling episode of the Crackin' Backs Podcast, we welcome Dr. Nathan Bryan, a distinguished expert in molecular medicine and nitric oxide biochemistry. Dr. Bryan has dedicated over 25 years to groundbreaking research in the field, leading to significant advancements in our understanding of gaseous signaling molecules in human physiology. ​

Episode Highlights:

  • Carbon Monoxide: Beyond the Poisonous Perception: Delve into the surprising physiological roles of carbon monoxide (CO) as a signaling molecule in the human body, challenging common misconceptions.​
  • CO's Impact on Endurance Athletes: Explore how CO influences hemoglobin mass and oxygen delivery, potentially affecting performance metrics in endurance sports.​
  • Mechanisms Behind CO Inhalation: Understand the science of how low-dose CO inhalation can mimic altitude training effects by increasing hemoglobin mass, and the potential performance benefits associated with this practice. ​
  • Health Risks and Ethical Considerations: Discuss the health risks associated with repeated CO inhalation, even at low doses, and the ethical implications of using CO as a performance-enhancing method. ​
  • Regulatory Perspectives: Gain insight into the concerns raised by organizations like the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and the International Cycling Union (UCI) regarding CO inhalation practices in sports. ​

About Dr. Nathan Bryan:

Dr. Bryan earned his Bachelor of Science in Biochemistry from the University of Texas at Austin and his doctoral degree from Louisiana State University School of Medicine in Shreveport, where he received the Dean’s Award for Excellence in Research. He pursued post-doctoral training as a Kirschstein Fellow at Boston University School of Medicine in the Whitaker Cardiovascular Institute. In 2006, Dr. Bryan joined the faculty at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston, recruited by Nobel Laureate Dr. Ferid Murad. His extensive research has led to numerous seminal discoveries and over a dozen issued U.S. and international patents. ​

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Join us for this insightful conversation as we uncover the complex role of carbon monoxide in athletic performance, health, and ethics. Whether you're an athlete, coach, or health enthusiast, this episode offers valuable perspectives on a controversial topic.

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Dr. Spencer Baron:

Nathan, when you hear carbon monoxide, you think poison, right? Deadly, dangerous. But what if we told you elite athletes are using it to boost performance? Is it a cutting edge breakthrough or a risky shortcut? Today, we dive deep with Dr Nathan Bryan, a leading expert in gaseous signaling molecules to uncover the science and the risks and the ethical debate behind this controversial trend. It's in sports. But buckle up this one conversation you don't want to miss. Welcome to the cracking backs podcast. Dr Nathan Bryan, glad to have you back on the show. Great to be back. Good to see you guys. So happy to see you, but I'm more happy to hear you because there's been some interesting stuff that's come up. So curious about your conversation about nitric oxide on our last show was very, very revealing and profound to especially a lot of athletes and those who are interested in health and wellness. But there's been a very peculiar new thing that's come up, and I was shocked when Dr Terry mentioned it, and it's the use of carbon monoxide. Yes, carbon monoxide, the same shit that comes out of your exhaust of your car, is being used in human physiology and performance. Let's just jump right in and talk about that topic.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

Yeah, well, you know, there's these things that you know. The best example was nitric oxide. You know, if you go into a critical care unit in the hospital where they're delivering nitric oxide gas to premature babies with pulmonary hypertension, on that cylinder of nitric oxide gas, it's got a skull and crossbones, and it says poison. And the same thing with hydrogen sulfide. You know, hydrogen sulfide is a poisonous gas, and many people, at least, who work in the oil fields in Texas and in mines where hydrogen sulfide detectors to make sure that they're not being exposed. And the same thing with carbon monoxide, obviously, too much of this poisonous gas can be bad. But what we're finding in biochemistry and physiology is really low levels of these that are physiological in nature are really important signaling molecules. So nitric oxide, hydrogen sulfide, carbon monoxide, all of these are physiological signaling molecules at low doses, they become toxic and poisonous at really high doses. So this is a fascinating field of what we call Gaza transmitters. They're gaseous transmitters in the human body that are signaling and the adaptive effects, primarily to low oxygen.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Wow. Did you say Gaza? Say that again, that word gaso

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

transmitters, gas signal transduction by a gas

Dr. Spencer Baron:

that is absolutely that is so interesting, especially after, you know, learning so much about nutrition and what that means to our bodies. But to hear this, so how please share, in what context are endurance athlete athletes using carbon monoxide? I think it's just so strange for me to even say that. But how are they using it, and what parameters, such as hemoglobin, acid, oxygen delivery. Carbon

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

monoxide is a gas that binds to cytochrome c oxidase on the cytochrome c or the mitochondria electron transport chain. So what that does? And you know, it's the same thing with nitric oxide. Nitric oxide binds to that, but it's a reversible inhibition. So what that allows, it allows oxygen to diffuse further into tissue, so you extend the oxygen gradient, and so you prevent the lactic acid buildup. You basically induce this acute hypoxia. So the net effect is you have mitochondrial biogenesis, because this acute hypoxic or low oxygen environment caused by nitric oxide or low levels of carbon monoxide, lead to the adaptive effects of mitochondrial biogenesis, vascular Genesis. Carbon monoxide specifically up regulates, you know, heme oxygenase. And then there's some evidence emerging that it's a, you know, upregulator of HIFF and alpha, this hypoxia inducible factor that leads to these adaptive effects of low oxygen. So this is a rich field of how these really low level gaseous signaling molecules can elicit a protective effects and then obviously improve athletic performance in many other aspects of physiology. So

Dr. Spencer Baron:

is this similar like is the physiology similar to training at high altitudes, especially for those of us in Florida that live at sea level.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

Now, for sure, I mean, it's it's called intermittent hypoxia. So intermittent hypoxia means that you have low levels or brief periods of low levels of oxygen. Now if it's an obstruction of a coronary artery or a cerebral Arter, we call that a stroke, right? An ischemic stroke. That's what you don't want. But it's been shown that training at high altitude, because the partial pressure of oxygen is lower at altitude, each breath we're breathing in less oxygen, so we create a hypoxic or low oxygen environment. It's. Most people, within two to three days, if you have good vascular function and can produce nitric oxide, they adapt to that. So they produce nitric oxide, they dilate the blood vessels, they improve oxygen delivery. And so that's then evidence is shown, and data has been shown that five to seven days at altitude, you're increasing your nitric oxide level. So now when you come back down to sea level, you can out compete the competition because you're generating more ATP, more cellular energy, more efficiently with less oxygen, and you've got better blood flow.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

So rather, so rather than, Oh, sorry, Terry, I was just gonna ask, like, rather than, you know, me jogging behind a pickup truck,

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

and breathing many other things coming out of that, exhaust and carbon monoxide, dioxide, locking yourself in the garage. Things happen.

Unknown:

Yeah, don't try this at home. People listening,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

you know, the whole time you're talking, Doc, you know, I, I kind of grew up in my career working with cyclists, and especially when we went over the overseas, and we started trade competing in Europe, and that was back in the day when people were blood doping, and you know, whether they're taking their own blood or they're doing, you know, pill form like EPO and stuff like that. And then we had a team die because they had too much and their heart monitors didn't go off and and their heart stopped from the sludge. And so when I first approached you about this subject, all I could think about is, everybody wants an edge, or call it cheating, call it trying to find that 1% that edge. And all I can think about is people hearing something about that, some doctor doesn't know what they're doing, some trainer, some athlete, and they're going to do it wrong. And carbon monoxide, like Spence talked about, is a toxic gas. And he also brought up an interesting point, that a lot of the symptoms of overuse mimic the flu. So yeah, how I just see red lights going off? How does Can you explain, yo, the dangers and how hard it is to actually do it right

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

now, look what you have to understand the underlying biochemistry and physiology before you can ever start to rationalize therapies or interventions, because dose dictates poison no matter what the molecule is. You know, people die by drinking too much water, yeah, right, you get hypotonic lysis. So water is absolutely essential for life that you can overdo it. That's funny. So I think that's why, if you're doing this especially, and that's, you know, I get criticized a lot for, you know, criticizing other companies and products, because if you don't understand what you're doing, especially with gaseous molecules, you can overdo it, and then it could kill an entire field. Because you've probably seen this. I mean, you see it on the news guy, well, carbon monoxide has been shown to enhance athletic performance, so he goes and locks himself in the garage with his exhaust, with his cars running, and next thing you know, he's found dead. That could kill an entire field, yeah, and if people overuse or misuse nitric oxide because they're just ignorant or uninformed, and it could kill this entire field, because there's enormous therapeutic benefits of this. So carbon monoxide today is probably where nitric oxide was 40 years ago. The fact that you can administer low levels of a poisonous, toxic gas and have medicinal, therapeutic benefits in the most vulnerable population on the earth, which is premature babies. And today, fast forward, that's saved millions of babies lives. And I think now, as we start to investigate the role of low levels of carbon monoxide and its adaptive effects and how it signals acts as a single molecule in the body. Fast forward 30 years from now, and there will be medicinal uses of this for perhaps people with ischemia or hypoxia related disorders, but that's still to be worked out. But no, you can't just jump on this, and that's why we were very deliberate in our nitric oxide technologies, because human nature is, you know, for instance, our beet powder, our no beets, we put it in individual sachets. It would be much cheaper for us to put it in a big tub with a scoop. But human nature is, oh, well, if Nathan says that one scoop of this is good, three or four is going to be great, right? And no, that's that's why we're very deliberate on how we dose our nitric oxide, how we deliver nitric oxide, because what we try to do is recapitulate physiology. We never want to give to the body something that the body hasn't seen at the doses that it normally would not see. That requires a very specific knowledge and expertise and under. Understanding of the biochemistry, the enzymology and the physiology, and I can proudly say that really nobody else has that understanding as I do, because I've been doing this for 30 years.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

You know, I'm hoping people listening to this, because most athletes are looking for that edge. Yeah, they train. But, you know, athletics is got, I mean, hundreds of a second can be the difference between first and last place, right? So athletes are looking for that edge, and most of the athletes are looking for the edge are in their early 20s, late teens. They don't have the knowledge and their improvement.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

Well, they don't have a lot of improvement. But as you said, that little bit, that 1%

Dr. Terry Weyman:

is huge, and they're going to listen to anybody that gives that 1% because that's the difference between a paycheck and not a paycheck, and fame versus not fame and and Spence comes from the NFL world where I remember, I don't remember who it was, but they interviewed all these NFL players back in the steroid use, and they said, if you were, if I told you, I'd give you this shot, and it'll make you great, but you're going to die at 40. Would you do it? And 90% of people said they would, you know, so, so you know, with this, with but gasses are different than blood doping, or different than the steroid, it just seems to be way more dangerous. And in fact, WADA world anti doping agency finally just put out right after I contacted you, a an advisory against use. But how do you detect it? How do you track it? And, and, and if an athlete is being told to take this by his coach or his trainer, what's the reasons behind the concerns, and what's some questions that these athletes need to ask. Well, you can

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

certainly detect carbon monoxide. It's use, you know, you see it on the news. I don't watch a lot of TV, but when I'm in hotel rooms, I turn on just to see where I'm going. But you know, the Gene Hackman death in Arizona, they checked for carbon monoxide. So even in post mortem blood analysis, you can detect this gas. So I think certainly in a clinical setting there's there's methods of detection, and in the research environment, there are methods of detection, but probably in athletic facilities and blood doping facilities, not because this is, you know, as I mentioned, where nitric oxide was 40 years ago, and similar to carbon monoxide and hydrogen sulfide and nitric oxide, there are detection gas phase analytical detection instruments that can detect these gasses, but they're just not that common. So you have to be careful. But what you have to understand is understand how much carbon monoxide is produced naturally in the human body as a result or a byproduct of normal metabolism. And then, what, where does that night? What does that carbon monoxide go? What does it become? What does it bind to, and what? What signaling aspects does it have? And then, at what level do you reach? A toxic state, you know, in nitric oxide. It's very simple. We measure met hemoglobin, em, so when you have too much nitric oxide, it oxidizes the iron of hemoglobin, and we can detect that in the peripheral blood through a simple blood draw. And the other kind of toxic sign is low blood pressure, loss of blood pressure, because you get massive vasodilation and you lose perfusion pressure. Carbon monoxide, it's, you know, I'm not that familiar with the field, and certainly hydrogen sulfide, similar. It's a toxic gas, but when delivered safely and effectively in a controlled environment that recapitulates physiology, there's enormous therapeutic benefits of that, but that should only be especially in carbon monoxide under the care of a physician or research scientist who knows how to deliver it kind of, what dose to safely deliver.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Speaking of dose, like, how, how does one do this? If they, I mean, I was kidding about jogging behind a truck, but, I mean, what would, what would it take? I mean, if you don't mind sharing, you know, how did I've never even heard this. How is it administered? And how do you regulate? I have absolutely no idea how, for

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

carbon monoxide or nitric oxide. Oh, carbon monoxide. You know, I don't know when, when Dr Terry reached out to me. I hadn't even heard of this. But, you know, I'm probably not very well informed, because I don't watch TV. You know, I stopped watching TV in 2020 because I thought I would watch TV, I'd get stressed, and I'll get pissed off, and I go, you know, what? If I can't change it or control it, I'm not going to worry about it, right? So I turn the TV off, because most of the shit on TV I can't control and I can't change, so I'm not going to let it affect me. In my life, I'm very focused. Every morning, when I get up, I have a game plan for the day, and there's nothing going to stop me from

Dr. Terry Weyman:

achieving. Well, I'll, I'll give you where this came. The funny thing is, where I get I got this from. I have never heard of it, either in the US working with athletes. It was an app, a pro athlete in Europe that told me about it, and he was actually visiting from Europe. Here. Here. And so in the world, especially endurance sports Europe, is is kind of like a lot more advanced than we are, in some respects. And the doping stuff, the blood doping, was done in Europe before it's done in America. And so a lot of these endurance athletes and it, and that's where I'm hearing it from. I heard from your running and cycling and even cross country skiing. And I'm like, holy crap. And if this and, and obviously the WADA is now aware of it, and I'm like, Well, this is happening in the world stage. It's just but I haven't heard it yet in us days, and I want to jump ahead and could this guy come to here? You know? Yeah, what? So I'm like, Whoa. I want, I don't want people jogging behind trucks and thinking that that's going to help them. And so that's why people have to listen to us going, Oh, it's already been out there. It's been out there for, obviously, long enough for WADA to pay attention to it, and yet, here's three doctors that haven't even heard about it. So, so what's so, what's some evidence or stuff like that, that that is it worth it?

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

No, it's always risk benefit, right? No matter what what you're looking at, what's the risk of what you're doing versus what's the potential benefit? And if the risk outweigh the benefits, then it's an easy it's an easy question. You don't do it right. And so for, I think, for in anything you're doing, you have to understand the risk and then see what the upside is. But certainly at this stage, based on what understanding, I think the scientific community has, and especially maybe sports enthusiasts or trainers. I think the risk certainly far outweigh any benefits, because, at least again, not understanding the published literature in this, how do you deliver it safely and effectively, and at what dose you know, back 40 years ago in the nitric oxide field, this was done in experimental animals. You could deliver inhaled gas and then see what the pulmonary effects were, what the systemic effects were, blood oxygen saturation. And then once they had a pretty good understanding of that, then they dialed in a dose for premature babies with pulmonary hypertension. Then the other consideration is you've got to fix a flow rate that it doesn't react with oxygen. So it's a fixed flow rate, so where you don't have the dioxygen reaction, because you don't want to deliver nitrogen dioxide to premature babies, which is a toxic pulmonary toxicant, and it's a poisonous gas. So there's a lot of thought that goes into this. It's based on physics, it's based on pressure and flow and a lot of biochemistry, and that if the layperson has no way to understand that or knowledge of it,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

all right? I got one more question. So the flip side of that is we're always as consumers, wanting our athletes to be stronger, run faster, go better, so so they're more entertaining on TV. So we push our athletes to be better, right, sometimes at the expense of the athlete, and we ask them to recover faster. Is this some and so science doesn't care about fire play, and athletes don't care about fair play. They care about making money on TV and having people watch them. So we have to find that balance between what's fair and and what allows our athletes to recover, to perform better and don't get diseases down the road. So do you see this as a safer alternative, once it's mastered, than like a like a blood doping or taking testosterone or stuff like that.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

You know, I think that'll have to be played out in the in the clinical data, in the clinical literature. But I think as we understand more about human physiology, and especially about athletic performance and mitochondrial function and regulating blood flow and oxygen delivery and optimizing energy production at the cellular level, then you can start to integrate therapies that can enhance that or to overcome any deficiencies. I think I mean my own personal bias. I think nitric oxide achieves all that, because when you look at what nitric oxide does, it dilates the blood vessels and improves tissue oxygenation, so we're delivering more oxygen, more nutrients, to the working skeletal muscle. And the adaptive effects of that is it induces mitochondrial Genesis, so it activates PGC, one alpha, the cell has more mitochondria, and it's stopping the electron leakage across the trans inner membrane, transmembrane, and it's preventing oxidative stress. So the net effect of having sufficient nitric oxide production should have better blood flow, blood better tissue oxygenation, and you can more efficiently make cellular energy ATP with less oxygen. So what else would you be looking for? Testosterone doesn't do that. It. I don't think carbon monoxide is going to do that maybe. I mean, I think we're going to have to wait and see how that plays out. But for me, if you can optimize nitric oxide production, you're going to get better performance, you're going to get quicker recovery, and everything is going to work better.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

So the concept of nitric oxide is obviously providing more oxygen blood flow, you know, just to put it in basic lay language, but whereas carbon monoxide, if I'm understanding this correct correctly, it puts the system under a stress where your body just enough of a stress that your body reacts to it by increasing, you know, hemoglobin carrying capacity, or hemoglobin, you know well, and oxygen to the system. Again, similar to altitude training. And then again, let's not forget, if it wasn't for altitude training, we would have never had the concept of putting those breathing masks on that are extremely uncomfortable and training with those. Terry, have you ever used that, you know, like the yeah, those are they're so uncomfortable you just suck in air. And actually, now that I think about it, I had a buddy of mine who was training for an Iron Man, and he said he would sleep at night in one of those low oxygen tents at home. And it would be like altitude training. The sad thing is that I would watch him come in, come in to get treated, and he looked terrible because he wouldn't be able to sleep at night. So you're sacrificing certain things you know, to try to gain access to other performance enhancement ability.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

We know there's this concept in the research environment. We call it ischemic preconditioning, and cardiologists know about this. So ischemia basically means lack of blood flow, right? And so ischemic preconditioning, and you see this now with blood flow restriction, right? Athletes working out with bands on their arm, yeah. And this is called ischemic preconditioning, and this has been published in the medical literature that if you just take a cuff and you occlude blood flow in the break your artery that protects the heart from injury, from heart attack, ischemic preconditioning, brief periods of ischemia precondition the myocardium in the heart that if you have an ischemic event in the heart, you don't see as much tissue death and ejection fraction is maintained. And it's you're preconditioning. It's a protective effect. And I think it's not just limited to the heart. So if you're doing this blood flow restriction during, you know, resistance training that's creating these brief periods of hypoxia, because you're restricting blood flow. And the net effect of that is that tissue is going to go, Oh, shit. I didn't like that. I was running out of oxygen. I need more blood flow. I'm going to induce angiogenesis. I'm going to have more mitochondria so I can make more energy with less oxygen. And those are the adaptive effects you get hypertrophy, you get angiogenesis, more blood flow, and then you're better able to deal with lower oxygen. It's an adaptive effect. It's for mes

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I love it. I don't think you're going to have an answer or a comment to this next question, but, man, I'm going to put it out there, because people are starting to notice that a lot of football players are wearing this collar that actually puts pressure, a subtle amount of pressure, on the carotids, or, I think, the carotid arteries. Yeah, and in the effort to reduce blood flow to the brain, in case there's a concussion, which, you know, it reduces the possibility of a brain bleed or something. Do you have any clue about that conversation or, I mean, you know, again, you're reducing but I don't understand the the rationale behind it. But apparently, there's some research out there that shows that it could be viable.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

One, I've never heard of that. And two, I can't imagine a situation when you want to perform at the highest level where you restrict blood flow, right and prevent blood into the brain. I mean, when you look at a concussion or any traumatic brain injury, there's always reduced blood flow. You can look at this MRI spec scans, and there's always what focal ischemia. So whether it's a subarachnoid hemorrhage or it's just a concussion or mild brain trauma, if you look at the blood flow to that region where the blow is, there's reduced blood flow. It's focal ischemia. So there's less blood flow to that so that's what's contributing to the process, the damaging process, and then you get neuro inflammation, you get oxidative stress and immune dysfunction. You get protein misfolding, and that starts the process of neurological disease. But if you can maintain adequate blood flow and you can super oxygenate, that's why hyperbaric works so good for concussion. And traumatic brain injury, because we're super oxygen that tissue. It's releasing nitric oxide, it's mobilizing stem cells, so then the stem cells can go and repair what was what was damaged. But restricting blood flow to that makes absolutely no sense. Wow, that's that's

Dr. Spencer Baron:

a great explanation. I probably should be more clear that it doesn't necessarily restrict what it regulates blood flow. So, I

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

mean, I'm a big fan of letting the body regulate it on its own. Body is a lot smarter than we are,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

absolutely, very much.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

So, oh, go ahead, Terry, I got

Dr. Terry Weyman:

one more question back on that. It because I'm thinking the whole time, and you're talking about nitrous oxide, and how much research, and they said carbon monoxide four years behind. So if they do similar things, and maybe I'm wrong, but if they do similar things, why aren't athletes really focusing for performance enhancements on nitrous oxide? Why are they jumping ship to carbon monoxide?

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

You know, I think people, as any industry matures, you get people that enter this marketplace because there's consumer demands. And we all know there's hundreds of nitric oxide products on the market. Unfortunately, most of these are put forth by companies who, I said, don't understand the biochemistry and the physiology or how to deliver nitric oxide gas. It's one thing to give people that have normal endothelial function, normal enzymatic function, precursor substrates and allow their body to make nitric oxide on its own. The problem with that philosophy is we're never out of arginine. We're never out of citrulline. We're I mean, in some cases, you can have a deficiency in nitrate based on your diet, but the primary problem is the enzyme that converts arginine to nitric oxide becomes dysfunctional. So giving Arginine is without effect. So then you have all these, these, these consumers, these athletes, they just believe the marketing and go, Oh, this product produces nitric oxide, or it's a nitric oxide product. I'm going to take it, and they don't see any effect or improvement in their performance. So their interpretation is, well, nitric oxide doesn't help me improve my performance. And that's a misinterpretation. The proper interpretation is that product doesn't, didn't produce nitric oxide, so of course, it didn't improve my performance. So they're always looking and it's just it's a crowded space. And you know, that's why I think these conversations are important, because consumers need to be educated and informed, so when they go to their health food store or their their trainer or their nutritionist, that they can be properly advised on which product on the market produces nitric oxide enhances the natural production of nitric oxide, and thereby, thereby they could see an effect. And, you know, I spent 30 years doing this. I know how to do it. My product technology does it

Dr. Spencer Baron:

with that said, in an effort to for our listeners to viewers, to grab an idea of how they would identify a good product. You know, whatever model they would use to determine whether a product for nitric oxide is is worthwhile, because eventually we could use the same approach when determining if the carbon monoxide whether it's a, you know, breathing system or which I can't imagine, or a supplement of some sort, yeah, you know, how would somebody determine a good product?

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

Well, you got to look at the company or the person who formulated that product. Are they a real scientist and a doctor who's published in the in the basic sciences, because you cannot develop a product technology if you don't understand how the human body makes it in the first place. And you know, I spent 2025, years in academia. And so our metric is, we design experiments, we conduct those experiments, we collect the data, and then we submit it in peer reviewed publications or in articles, and then our peers, experts in the field, review it to make sure that it meets the rigor of the science for publication in high impact journals. So if the formulator has never published anything in the published literature on Medline or PubMed, then how are you going to trust that they even know anything remotely about nitric oxide, to even have the knowledge to develop a product. Then the other thing that we do is we actually test our own products. We have a gas phase nitric oxide analyzer that detects nitric oxide gas so our products, we can demonstrate with the laws. And we put the laws in your mouth, we detect nitric oxide coming out. We put our beets in a glass of water, we detect nitric oxide coming out. We can do blood draws and look at nitric oxide production after consumption of these products. And you know, companies don't like when I do that. In fact, when we're at medical trade shows, they complain. And you know, many of these companies have sued me for telling the truth, and it's just the environment. Environment we live in. But you know what? Bring it on, because I won't be stopped from telling the truth. This cost me millions of dollars in lawyer fees, but the truth is the truth.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Well, I think we might see a shift or a change, you know, in your favor in the coming years. Here, look, I'm

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

committed to the science. Because I mentioned if if people, if people are taking products that don't deliver on nitric oxide, then it could kill the entire field. And right through my drug company, Brian therapeutics, we're developing FDA approved drugs for heart disease, for Alzheimer's, topical drugs for diabetic ulcers. And if there's bad actors in this field who don't understand the underlying biochemistry and the therapeutic benefits of this, and they're wanting to capture a market share in the supplement market, then it could really cost, I think, millions of lives. Because as we move this to the FDA and understand the science and demonstrate safety and efficacy on these then think it's going to change the world. I mean, we've seen it in some of our clinical trials already.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I think that's why I was so excited to reach out to you, because it's nice to have you on our board of knowledge. Shall speak. But you know, for the broad trend, these athletes, going back to this, are always seeking that physiological shortcut in competitive sports, because their job depends on it. And I had a couple athletes that were kicking ass. Go went to Europe, beating everybody. They take six months, they come back, and now those people are beating them, and it's pissing them off. And they're like, what's going on? So, so, and then they find out, Oh, I just, I did carbon monoxide, and now I'm doing great. Well now that person, the athlete, is not going to do the research, and I go, they just want to beat the guy that they were beating six months ago. And so what's, I'm not asking you, you're a scientist, but I'm going to ask you to be a psychologist for a second. What is what some where do you see this trend going and balance between performance enhancement and the health and integrity of the athlete, and how can this athlete fight back when he's 20 years old, 22 years old in any type of sport, whether it's power lifting or if it's endurance sports, what some questions that you can offer as a scientist.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

Well, you know, we've known historically that athletes, top performing athletes, are always the early adapt adopters to any new technology, right? Because they're always looking for that slight edge to give them that competitive advantage, and so they drive the research right. And hopefully it doesn't take a catastrophic event or a fatality, an ignorant experiment where it causes damage, but if there's bona fide evidence that this is a ergogenic aid and it can enhance performance, then there will be grant money, there'll be funding to fund the research to get a clear understanding of it, and then perhaps there'll be product technology on the market that's been deemed safe, mainly safe. I mean, that's the only rigor for supplements, and then for drug therapy, you gotta demonstrate safety and efficacy. But I tell people, you know, don't take this lightly. You know, people die from carbon monoxide poisoning all over the US, all over the world every year. And so this is not to be taken lightly. You have to understand what it is, what it does, and what doses. And I don't think the data is there to demonstrate that. I mean, maybe these people in Europe have unpublished data in humans, and, you know, know what they're doing more so than than we in the US. But this isn't something to be played around with.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Dr Nathan, nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is found as a gas, yes, okay, and you are able to provide it as a sub Well, you know something that would dissolve in your mouth? Yeah, we

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

call it an early disintegrating tablet world. Yeah, that

Dr. Spencer Baron:

So, and carbon monoxide is a gas that, now that I'm imagining, you know, with your intellect, is that? Do you, I mean, it may be an unfair question, but can you foresee a regulated dose, kind of like the way you would use nitric oxide as a carbon monoxide lozenge or

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

something, absolutely, you know, hydrogen sulfide is a gas, too. The problem with hydrogen sulfide is it smells like rotten eggs, right? It's the sulfur smell, yeah, so delivering a hydrogen sulfide and an ODT, and it probably wouldn't be very attractive, but you know, you can certainly do it. There's there's sulfur, donating drugs, sulfur donating compounds. Yes, yes, that you can give, that we've done in the research. Lab for many years, and experimental animals. And there's some, you know, sulfur releasing compounds in, you know, the Sephora fans, right? That's found in broccoli and some green leafy vegetables. These are sulfur containing compounds that, when metabolized and consumed in the human body, can produce hydrogen sulfide gas. So, once we understand, look, it's just chemistry. Everything comes down to chemistry. We know. We as biochemists, we count electrons. We know what's on the right side of the equation. We know what's on the left side of the equation. We can make nitric oxide gas, we can make hydrogen sulfide gas, we can make carbon monoxide gas, we can make carbon dioxide gas, right? Those are just basic chemical equations in chemical reactions that we can harness at some point, once we understand what's the dose, what's the rate of delivery, and how is it taken up in the human body, and what are its targets.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

You made a point. Thank you, and I like that you use the acronym ODT instead of me trying to say the whole thing. Now, with that said, you had mentioned earlier, and it's important to comment or bring it up again, but you know, you can take, you know, just plain old water and drink too much and over hydrate and cause a problem in the brain and die. So, you know, that's one end of the spectrum of something that we take advantage of every day is something that we need. Because most people talk about dehydration, you know, instead of, you know, I've actually had a patient. He was a professional baseball pitcher that over hydrated and and because he was from New York, and he was here playing in South Florida against the Marlins. He sweat a lot, so He sweat out all the electrolytes and then, but he was drinking tons of water, you know. So my thought was, you know, the if we aroused your curiosity about the potential for carbon monoxide as a as a supplement to enhance performance. Because I know that you're deeply immersed in the nitric oxide world, but it seems like it could have similar, you know, endurance, you know, or performance based properties is what do you think? It's

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

not, it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility and but I think what you know there's, we've come a long way in the nitric oxide field, but there's so much more to do that. You know, I'm singly focused on getting our nitric oxide drug technology approved and through the FDA and on the market so physicians can treat patients with poorly managed chronic diseases, such as, you know, ischemic heart disease and Alzheimer's and diabetic ulcers, non healing wounds, heart failure, pulmonary hypertension, all of those, nitric oxide will positively affect so at least for me, in this point, my company is singly focused on nitric oxide. Now, as we progress through there, you know, it certainly wouldn't be outside of my scope and focus to bring on other gaseous transmitters, gas or transmitters that have therapeutic benefit, either in the supplement space or in the drug therapy space. Because one thing that we've been able to do, what nobody else has been able to do, is create a solid dose form of a gas, right? That almost defies the physical chemistry, but I've been able to do that through my basic science research and then the development of that technology. So it's not to say that we couldn't do it. I mean, we can certainly do it with hydrogen sulfide, you know, how to best deliver that without the the odorous sulfur smell. But carbon monoxide is a, you know, an odorless, colorless gas, just like nitric oxide, so it probably be much more easier to deliver carbon monoxide to consumers from a taste profile and a flavor profile than it would be hydrogen sulfide.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Wow, that, you know, I'm so glad that you are so adept in that world of nitric oxide, because, you know, there was a point in time where it was hard to grasp a concept like that. And I'm glad you also mentioned the benefits, because I forgot from the first show, some of the conversation that we had about the benefits of it as being such a, you know, relevant, you know, not only for disease, but for also, you know, performance purposes, you know. And thank you for sharing your thoughts about the idea of carbon monoxide as a possibility in the future.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

Yeah, no, but I mean, in full transparency and admission, I just, I don't again, when Terry mentioned it to me, I'd never heard of it. I mean, we published years ago that, you know, carbon monoxide affected hemoxygenase, and there's a rich literature on that in terms of signaling, these physiological signaling mediators, these gaseous signaling molecules. But I've never heard of it as an urgent ergogenic aid and used for athletic performance. But I think we're just at the beginning. If the athletes are just now finding about it, the scientific community will typically be five to 10 years later,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

always you. It, yeah, and you know, there, there's always something new going on, especially, you know, in the world of bodybuilding, you hear some pretty crazy things that are so far removed from what I remember from 30 years ago. So I'm not surprised on the carbon monoxide, but I was absolutely fascinated, because it has such a link to the cause of death for so many people, you know. So

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

anyway, it should be played around with this serious, serious, yeah, I would

Dr. Spencer Baron:

imagine. I would imagine, yeah. So, okay, we're entering a time right now, the near the end of the show that we ask our fun five rapid fire questions.

Unknown:

And being that you're Yeah, oh, he had to sit up in that chair,

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

yeah, early in the morning. And I haven't had a dream. Haven't had my evening sky. So yeah,

Unknown:

evening scotch. I Right?

Dr. Spencer Baron:

You better. You better grab some nitric oxide for these next five questions,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

all like stoic and also you mentioned rapid fire, his eyes go big

Unknown:

and he sat up in the chair.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Question number one, Dr Nathan, if science could create one wild, futuristic performance enhancing breakthrough without any side effects, what would you want it to be and why?

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

Well, look, that's a very simple answer for me.

Unknown:

We're warming you up, that's why? Yeah, no,

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

it's nitric oxide, because I mentioned it does everything that we know that can enhance performance. And it's not just enhancing athletic performance, enhances cognitive performance, sexual performance. I mean performance by any metric. Nitric oxide moves the needle on them.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I think, I think you just pulled in everyone's attention by the comment, the second comment you made sexual performance, because I absolutely believe that our listeners and viewers just went and perked up in their chair.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

But thank you. Think about sexual performance. It's about dilation and engorgement. Yes, right? How do you get engorgement of the sex organs? You have to dilate the blood vessels to allow more blood flow into the sex organs and your body. Can't make nitric oxide, you can't dilate the blood vessels. You don't get engorgement, and we call that erectile dysfunction. Yeah,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I find it interesting that you held your hands this far apart because I have no idea who could fit.

Unknown:

That's what nitric oxide could do, guys. All right. So anyway, what's

Dr. Spencer Baron:

question number two? What's the craziest or most extreme thing you've ever done in the name of health and longevity?

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

The most extreme thing? You know, I'm pretty conservative by nature, and the older I get, the less risky moves I try to take. You know, here's one thing I've done for the past year. I don't say it's risky, because the science on it is pretty good. But every morning, I get up and I sit in a sauna for 170 degrees for 30 minutes, and then I immediately go to 37 degree ice bath. So I did the cold plunge for three minutes. Do you do that? So it's this contrast therapy that you're maximally dilated 170 degrees for 30 minutes, you're sweating, and then from there, you go right into a 37 degree ice bath, cold plunge for three minutes, and it's very unpleasant. It never gets easier. But here's what I found, it makes you get into a breath, so it forces you to deep breathe, and you have to mentally prepare yourself for this shock to the system, but then once you get out and you shiver and you you recover. I mean, you feel it's an enormous high and just a bolt of energy unlike anything that I've ever experienced before. So despite the pain, despite the discomfort, despite the fact that I hate doing it, I do it because I know it starts out my day and I'm going to get a burst of energy. And the science on it is remarkable. It turns white fat to brown fat. It's more thermogenic. It burns the inflammatory fat around the the organs, and it's, you know, maximally constructing your blood vessels. So it's like giving you the smooth muscle around your blood vessels, or workout dilating, constricting. Dilating, constricting.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Wow. I we've been hearing a lot about that, and actually to you know the fact that we hear a lot about just people doing a cold plunge in the morning, but then the contrast bath, what were you gonna say? Dr Terry, were you about

Dr. Terry Weyman:

to say something? I tried it once, and I absolutely hated it so much, but I know it's one of those things. I'm really intrigued by it, because you're right, doc, I did feel better afterwards, but good God, was it hard?

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

No, it's awful. It's awful every day. I gotta stick with Nathan. Nathan, it's only three minutes. You can do anything for three minutes, and it's just, you know, we go through life and. Most of us encounter unpleasant situations, yeah, but it's all a mindset. And so for me, if I can get into the proper mindset and do something that's really uncomfortable, because for me, if you're not, if you're not uncomfortable, you're not growing, most people go through live just on autopilot. They're comfortable. And I don't want to be that. I want to continue to grow and improve. And that requires, that requires some discomfort, then sign me up.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

I think that's why I would probably buy the the$5,000 whether whatever that is already chilled, because I know for a fact, if I had a walk go down the store to buy ice and put it in, I wouldn't do it. No, you gotta get

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

going with the chiller. So you turn it on, and by the time you're done with your 30 minutes of fauna. It's at 3740 degrees and ready

Dr. Terry Weyman:

to go. And I was so cheap that I would, I just paid a lot of money for that. So I have to that would push me past the top part that you're interested. Yeah, if I paid a higher bike for it, I'd be like,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Dr Nathan, I think it's really worth mentioning again that what you said at the very end, and that is, if you're not uncomfortable, you're not growing, is that, did I paraphrase that? Or is that? Yeah, because I I love that, and I think that is so important that I wanted to mention it again. All right. I want to transition to question number three. Okay, let's fast forward 50 years from now. What's one health practice that we take for granted today, that future generations will think that was back that was completely ridiculous to do anything off the top of your head. Yeah,

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

intermittent fasting and caloric restriction. I mean, the data on that is 50 years from today, I'll be 101 and I'm 95% confident I'll still be alive and thriving and well. But you know, we're over fed in the US and intermittent fasting, the data on that, you get weight loss, you know, so many longevity genes induced. You know, we're in a season of land. I'm a Catholic, so yesterday, you know, as Ash Wednesday, the start of land, I fasted. You know, now we'll fast on, certainly a good Friday, and then on Fridays fast. But the health benefits of that are extremely I mean, it's undeniable, yeah. But I think if people can do that, and I start every day, I do an 18 hour fast. I eat my last meal at six, and I don't eat till noon the next day. So that's every day, 18 hours. And when I started that, you know, I've been plus or minus seven or eight pounds for the past 40 years, so I've haven't had a lot of change. But what I did notice when I started that the little bit of adipose tissue around my waist, and, you know, my stomach just completely goes off when you do an 18 hour fast. And then, usually, once a month, I'll do a 2448 or 72 hour fast. 72 hour fast is pretty tough, but a 2448 hour fast is very simple now, but you can see you'll lose, you know, four or five pounds of body fat in those two to one or two days. Just drink water. I take, you know, amino acids, so I don't lose bone and lose muscle. So I'm not breaking down protein, but I'm burning fat, and it's remarkable. So I think 50 years from now, you look back and go intermittent fasting. Thanks for that. Why don't we think of this earlier?

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I agree. I agree. Terry, what's the most time you've fasted

Dr. Terry Weyman:

by two or three days? Wow,

Dr. Spencer Baron:

I think I only fasted for Passover, and then I forgot about that. All right. Question number four, what's a defining moment in your career that made you stop and say, This is why I do what I do?

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

There have been many, but the one that really stands out was, you know, I'd figured out how to make nitric oxide. That was my eureka moment in the science lab. But, you know, that's, I think every scientist, maybe not every time. Many scientists have that, but it never comes to fruition, and it never leads to some product or technology that affects, you know, human treatments or disease. But back in 2010 we had a 15 year old pediatric patient at Texas Children's Hospital had a rare genetic disorder, and he had systemic disease, but his main problem he was in the pediatric intensive care unit. His blood pressure was like 210 over 115 when we saw it and I walked into the room with his pediatric cardiologist, his geneticist, his kidney doc, his primary care doc, I mean a room full of high profile Baylor College of Medicine, Texas Children's Hospital experts, and they've been treating this kid for 10 years, very unaffectively. And so here on this young research scientist at the Institute of Molecular Medicine, Moxie, and they go, we're going to give this you're going to give this kid this lozenge, a nitric oxide releasing lozenge, and you think it's going to. Uh, make him better than what we've been able to provide for him through many prescription drugs and dietary regimens and all that. And I go, Well, we're going to test it. So we gave this kid. We took his blood pressure again, if it was 222, 15 over 110 or 210, over 115 something like that. Gave him the lozenge. 10 minutes later, his blood pressure was 180 over 90. And they go, Well, let's test his other arm. That arm's always lower. So they test the other arm, and similar. 30 minutes later, his blood pressure was like 160 over 85 they go, Well, lie him down, because this doesn't seem right. So they lied him down. Four hours later, his blood pressure was 130 over 80, and it sustained so this kid had been treated with by the Best Docs, with the best prescription medication that they had in their armament, and he was resistant hypertension, risk of stroke, heart attack. He had kidney disease. He had heart disease. His heart disease had a heart twice the size of a normal 15 year old, and he had kidney disease. And within five days of him giving giving him that lozenge. So we monitored him throughout the day in the intensive care unit, and then he was released, and then started dosing like one lozenge every four hours, five days later, he came back his kidney disease had completely resolved. It was no longer spilling protein in the urine, and within five months, brought him back. His cardiologist did an echo, and he had a normal heart, normal heart size, normal heart function, and we published that in the American Journal of Human Genetics in 2011 but that right there when we say this 15 year old kid's life, goes, Wow. And this is a kid with a rare genetic disorder, an orphan disease. God. So if we had that effect in a kid who completely devoid of any nitric oxide, think about what we could do in the general population and people who just have maybe poor diet, poor habits, I mean that to me, was the moment I go, wow, this is, this is life changing.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

What a great totally. I love stories, but what PBS

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

found out about that and came and did a story on this healing, healing quest. You can, you can Google it, healing quest, nitric oxide, but it talks about this, this kid, and what we did for

Dr. Spencer Baron:

him. Oh, thank you for sharing that last question. You ready? I'm ready. If you could give one piece of advice, something very heartfelt, a health advice to your 18 year old self, knowing everything you know now, what would it be

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

you know, you have to avoid sugar and carbohydrates. You know, especially the older you get. You know, kids can get away with it in some point if they're active and metabolically active. But what we're seeing today is that, you know, sugar and carbs are the contributor to disease, right? And it's really the elevation in sugar, because sugar glucose, let's think of glucose. The root is glue. It's sticky, right? We all know if you spill a coke or a sweet tea on the or orange juice on the countertop, you come back the next day, it's sticky. It's like glue, yeah? Well, that's what it's doing inside our body. Sugar sticks to molecules. It sticks to enzymes, and enzymes have to be able to undergo a conformational change to transfer electrons from one donor to an acceptor. That's biochemistry. But if sugar stuck to it, it's locked in a conformational change, and that leads to, you know, disease and sugar sticks to hemoglobin. We call that hemoglobin a 1c right? But it's not isolated to hemoglobin. It sticks to every protein, every molecule, and it's makes our blood sludgy. And so, you know, I've always been in good shape. I've never been overweight, and I didn't always eat healthy. But what I found when I was a kid, I could get away with it, but down in my 40s and 50s, if I, you know, if I fall off the wagon and start eating donuts and honey buns and soda waters. I mean, I'm a pack on the pounds, like a, like, like a pack mule, you know? But I think that's, that's the, that's the advice I would give. And, you know, my kids, I've got kids that are 15, and my, my son just turned 17 today, yeah, March 6. So I got a 17 year old today. But you know they're they're incredible athletes, great shape, smart kids, all State football players, basketball players, and they don't always eat a healthy diet, but you know what? They're out working their ass off in the gym on the football field, so they need to fuel with carbs to maintain that level of metabolic activity. But for a couch potato, you can't do that.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Dr Nathan Bryant, I gotta tell you, man, you know, what I love about this guy is that he takes the highly complex and distills it down to little bite sized portions, portions that. Anybody can understand, and that's what makes you a teacher and an inspiration. And I love that you shared that, and especially the last thing about sugars, because you just made something so obvious to most people of what you know, if it's sitting on the counter and you know how it gets sticky like that, yeah, you know, thank you. And it reminds me of back in the days when I was in chiropractic college at Texas, Texas chiropractic college, when Blue Bell cookies and cream was nowhere else but in Texas, and my roommates and we would knock off a gallon in a night, which I figured you can relate, but you can't do that now, at this age, I would die from a diabetic coma or something. But I want to thank you again for being on

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

pleasure to be with you. Enjoy the conversation, and thanks for all you guys do. Hey,

Dr. Terry Weyman:

Doc, before we leave, I want to give you the floor. Give us a little shout out this new book that you Oh, yeah, yeah. And please give us a little shot that the link to buy it will be in your description, but talk to us about this quick journey, about that. Yeah.

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

So this is a two year project. So this really tells the story of nitric oxide. It's called The Secret of nitric oxide, bringing, like, bringing the science to life. But I described the history of the whole field of nitric oxide. What were the discoveries that led to Nobel Prize, what it is, what it does, why everybody should be concerned with it. But I've also intertwined kind of a personal story, my, my, my story of research and discovery, and translating those discoveries into product technology, and really highlighting a lot of the the obstacles, the hurdles, the resistance, the the opposition to what we were doing. So the motivation for the book was to bring global awareness to nitric oxide, because everybody needs to know what this molecule is, but also to hopefully inspire and motivate people who were doing tough things and being met with constant resistance. As I say in the book, if you're doing something worthwhile, you become a target, and people come after you. If you're doing stuff that don't matter, people leave you alone. And so if you're seeing resistance in opposition to what you're doing, wear that as a badge of courage, because what you're doing is meaningful and it's disruptive, and when you do that, you become a target. But now this is I'm really proud of it. You know, I've got glowing reviews from Lou. Ignore the guy who won the Nobel Prize the former attorney or former Surgeon General. David Perlmutter, you can find it at Nathan's book.com. It's available. We're number one on Amazon. Now we're working at the New York Times, so please support me. Go buy the book, leave me a good review at Nathan's book.com. Love

Dr. Terry Weyman:

it. I'll put a direct link to buy for anybody listening, everybody, every athlete, doctor, healthcare provider and layperson. You need to get this book from this man. Well, I tell

Dr. Nathan Bryan:

people I only wrote this book for two people. There's only two people who asked to read this book, the people who are healthy and don't want to get sick, for the people who are sick and want to get healthy, oh, you fall with one of those two categories. It's a must read.

Dr. Terry Weyman:

There you go. All right, there'll be a direct link in the description. Thank you, doctor, for your time, for jumping on to answer this question, and let's all be safe out there. Thank you guys, great. Thanks.

Dr. Spencer Baron:

Thank you for listening to today's episode of The cracking backs podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at cracking backs podcast, catch new episodes every Monday. See you next time you.