Say His Name. Hear Her Truth. This Is Memorial Day.

This isn’t just another long weekend. This is Memorial Day. And this episode will stop you in your tracks.

When Staff Sgt. Bryan Black was killed in an ISIS ambush in Niger, the ripple effect didn’t end with his final breath. A soldier’s death doesn’t just take a life—it shatters a family, echoes through a community, and leaves a silence that never truly fades.

On this Memorial Day, we sit down with Michelle Black, a Gold Star widow turned truth-seeker and author of Sacrifice: A Gold Star Widow’s Fight for the Truth. What began as a love story on a snowy mountain turned into a national headline, a political controversy, and ultimately, a mother’s relentless mission to honor her husband’s legacy and expose the truth behind his death.

Michelle’s story is a gripping journey through unimaginable loss, government spin, and the courage it takes to speak out when others would rather you stay silent. This conversation is not about politics—it’s about truth, service, sacrifice, and the very real cost of freedom that we need to honor on this day.

Memorial Day is not Veterans Day. It’s not about BBQs, sales, telling a Veteran “Thank you for your service” or three-day getaways. It’s about remembering those who laid down their lives—and the families who carry that weight every day.

If you’ve ever needed a reason to stop and reflect, this is it. Take the hour. Learn Bryan’s story. Hear Michelle’s voice. Say their names. Remember their sacrifice. Because the freedoms we enjoy were paid for in blood—and that’s worth more than a moment of silence.

 Listen now. Share it. And never forget why this day exists.

Learn more about Michelle Black:
Buy her book Sacrifice: ORDER HERE

Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michelleblack71

We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.

Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Transcript

Dr. Spencer Baron: 0:00

Memorial Day is not just a party or a long weekend for some, it's the day the world stopped turning Memorial Day is about one thing, honoring the dead who gave their lives that so we could live freely. Today we bring you the voice of someone who knows that cost far too well when Staff Sergeant Brian black died in an ISIS ambush in Niger, he didn't just leave behind a flag. He left behind a wife, two sons, and a truth that needed to be told Michelle Black is that wife a widow turned warrior, and in this powerful episode, she takes us beyond the headlines and into the silence that follows after the knock at the door this Memorial Day. Don't just remember the fallen. Hear their story. This cracking backs podcast with Gold Star family member Michelle black,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 0:58

well, everybody, we have. Michelle black on our show today. Michelle, thank you so much for coming on a Gold Star family, this show is on Memorial Day, and so thank you so much for taking the time out and saying yes to being on our show.

Michelle Black: 1:17

Well, I'm excited to be here. Thank you guys for having me. You

Dr. Terry Weyman: 1:20

know Memorial Day for many Americans means barbecues, long weekends, parties, thank you for your service, all that kind of stuff, but it holds a profoundly different meaning for families like yours. I know if a lot of people even know where the Gold Star family is and how has your understanding of Memorial Day changed since the loss of your husband, Brian? And what do you wish most people would consider about this day compared to other days?

Michelle Black: 1:54

So I grew up, we've discussed this. I grew up in California, and my family, we were not military at all. We weren't anywhere near military. So we spent most of our memorial days going out to either the beach or we'd go out to the river and we'd do some, you know, water skiing. And I mean, that was us, you know, when Brian was killed, it completely changed. I tell people I'm a gold star spouse, and they congratulate me because they think that means that I won some sort of prize for best spouse. They don't realize that it's because my husband was killed overseas by ISIS militants. It's pretty incredible. Not long ago, I was at an event for one of my it was a local Memorial Day event, and we had a local politician speak, and the whole thing was about veterans. And Memorial Day has nothing to do with veterans. Day, Veterans Day. Veterans have their own day. It's in November. It's November 11, and veterans get a lot of recognition, and I think that's great. I think they need that. And I think Veterans Day has its appropriate day, but even they, even veterans, get frustrated when Memorial Day comes around and all this attention is brought back to veterans, because these veterans lost friends too. Memorial Day is for the fallen. It's for those who gave their lives in service to their country. It's a day to remember those who were killed, basically so that we can live free. And for me and my kids, it's a day that we remember Brian. We remember their dad, who was taken too soon, Brian was a Green Beret. He was working overseas, and his team was ambushed by ISIS militants. And so every Memorial Day, we remember him, remember the three teammates that died with him. I I'm in constant contact with the surviving teammates, and so we reach out to each other, to support each other on that day and to remember our friends that were killed, not just Brian and not just Dustin and David and Jeremiah, but we remember other people that guys on his team have lost throughout the years. So I think people don't realize that when they think veterans on Memorial Day for their service, it's kind of a slap in the face, because they only remember the guys who survive on that day, and that's not what Memorial Day is for. A lot of times, on Memorial Day, those of us who are left behind and feel somewhat forgotten, we're going to our husband's graves. We're going to other friends, husband's graves. We're going to run to remember. We'd go as a group to wear blue run to remember. And me and all my widow friends would be there with our kids, and our kids would run for their dads, and me and my girlfriends would all walk and stop at each of our spouses flags and take pictures and say. Something nice about them. That's what Memorial Day is about. And, you know, I think people think it has to be one extreme or the other. I think Gold Star families, of course, that's what we do all day. That's what we do all weekend as we go through the Memorial Day weekend. But I don't think you have to choose either or, you know, I'm all about, hey, go to the river. Have a great time, but take a minute, learn somebody's name, learn their story. Lift up a glass and say this is to staff sergeant Brian black, you know, thank you for our freedom. You know, that's who you think. You thank the person who gave his life for your freedom, and that's how I see it. So

Dr. Terry Weyman: 5:48

since it's Memorial Day, let's talk about Brian black and let's celebrate life a little bit before we talk about loss. That's what Memorial Day is. It. Let's take it. Let's hold that glass up, and let's celebrate the life of Brian black. Can you take us back to those mammoth ski trips, or those mammoth ski slopes, or those small little pubs underground, you just you know what the ones we're talking about with the with the pool tables. And let's take us back to those backpacking trips. Let's take us back to the church retreats. Let's take us back to all that, and when you first met Brian, what was about him that immediately grabbed your attention.

Michelle Black: 6:28

He was big and didn't fit in, and he seemed a little awkward, if you imagine any ski crowd, or, you know, back in the 90s kind of the grunge snowboarding kid thing that was new. Brian didn't fit into any of it. He walked into my church. That was the first time I saw him, and he was wearing a sweater, you know, with like a turtleneck sweater with like a print on it, and tight jeans. And His neck was about as big around as my leg, and he looked like a giant wrestler, like just the jaw line. And he was six to probably 230 solid muscle, and looked like he should have a couple black eyes his teeth had clearly been hit and knocked around. And I just went, this guy kind of looks like, Shrek, what is his deal? And he used to joke that he looked like, Shrek, you know, and then he had layers. And I was like, Oh, that's nice. And he used to like to play like he was really, really dumb, because he looked like a big, dumb animal. And people would tease him about it, and people would treat him like he was an idiot, but, and he'd play along, but he was one of the most brilliant people I'd ever met, yeah, so that's when I met him. Was at the back of church, and he was dating one of my friends from work. I was a snowboard instructor, and I found out he was dating this gal, Shannon, and Shannon was a little off, you know, little crazy. And I thought, well, I guess that fits, you know. I remember I broke my leg that year, snow hoarding or No, broke my foot. I had something going on, and I was on crutches, and we had this in the year party, you know. And I mean, you know, mammoth parties. It was crazy. Kids going into the bathroom, storing coke and whatever. I'm just sitting out there thinking, Why am I here, you know? And, yeah, it's mammoth. It's It's insane. And so I'm just like, I, you know, I hardly drink. I drink a little bit. So I'm like, I'll grab a beer or something. And I look over and I see Shannon, and she's got this long, blonde, fake, fake blonde hair, and she's swinging it around. She's up on the bar. And I'm thinking, oh, where's Brian? I look over and he's hanging out, just drinking. And I was like, Well, I can avoid, like, all these guys are coming out of the bathroom high and hitting on me. And I'm like, I'm on crutches. I'm not gonna go join you and dance. Like, no. So I go over to Brian. I'm like, What are you doing? And so he's like, sit down. Like, here's a beard. I'm like, That's Shannon's beer. He's like, she hasn't opened it like she's busy, she won't notice. So that's kind of how we started talking. Is just that, you know? And I was like, oh, at least he's fun. And then I, like, flew by. I just thought he was nuts before then turns out he was, you know, super bright, you know. I thought the same thing everybody did, like, big, dumb animal. And so I started talking to him, the guy's brilliant. And so there were all these games that I could, you know, play and beat everybody at. So he started coming over and hanging out at our house. We had this big house. It was like, gosh, four or five stories, and it was all the girls from Church lived there. So he started coming over with his roommates, who were all the guys from church, and I remember we would play Chinese checkers, and I could beat everybody. So, you know, I had this pattern down, and no matter what, I could always win. And Brian walks in, and I beat him twice, and then he figured out my pattern, and he beat me. And. He beat me by one every time, just one drove me insane. And he knew it, and he did it on purpose. And then he tells me, one day, he goes, Well, you know, I used to play chess, and I'm like, used to play chess. What do you mean? And he goes, Well, I won second at Nationals when I was 12 years old. I was like, oh, okay, well, we're not playing games anymore. I'm not playing with you anymore. And so then he's like, Well, what do you want to do? And I would just ignore him, and, you know, start playing. I would I knit hats for all the places in the village there. And so he wanted to learn. So I was like, Sure. And, you know, they not had no dexterity, so he just kind of needed oily and, you know, whatever. But he tried. And so I think he was just doing it to try and spend time with me. And so anyway, it kind of changed over into the summer. We started doing a lot of hiking. Mammoth is just all these 10, 12,000 foot peaks, and I was just planning on, you know, I thought we were just friends. So I'm planning trips, and he keeps going, oh, I want to go. Oh, I want to go. So we go after work with headlamps and hike up into the mountains, and we'd take a few people, but people started dropping out. It was, like, way too cold at night or something. You know, there was always some reason people were dropping out. So next thing, you know, it's just me and him, and everyone's like, Oh, you can't do that. That's inappropriate. And I'm like, I'm 25 years old. Like, if anything inappropriate is going to happen, it's not going to be up in the woods, like it's going to be every other day of the week when I'm warm and not miserable. But okay, so come on. So we're hiking up into the woods, and then one day he just turns, you know, and is basically like, you know, this is it for me? Well, it wasn't then, actually, that was another day. So initially he was like, we got into this argument in the church parking not one day, because he told everybody that I was dating him. And I was like, why would you tell them that I'm not your girlfriend? And he tried calling me his girlfriend, and he goes, Well, we hang out every day, and we do this and we do that, and we don't have enough money to actually go out on dates, but we eat every meal together. You made this whole like argument that was so frustrating that I couldn't really, like argue back. So then it was more of a hammering out the details, like who was technically accurate and I was technically accurate because we hadn't had a discussion, so I couldn't be his girlfriend if he hadn't told me I was his girlfriend, so technically we weren't dating until I decided that we were dating for the moment in the parking lot when he told me we were dating and I agreed to it, so that way I technically won. Yeah, so it was like a battle of the wills, Battle of the like intellect, who's going to win here? And so then, gosh, it must have only been a few weeks or months later, we were out hiking again, and he basically was just like, I think we should get married. And we both agreed that, yeah, that was kind of that made sense. Whoa.

Unknown: 12:56

Back up. A minute. Back up. When was the first kiss? It

Michelle Black: 12:59

was on that trip, too. Oh yeah. After we started, after we decided we were technically dating, like it must have been the next week, it wasn't long. It's just like we finally realized, like, it

Unknown: 13:11

didn't happen in the parking lot. When you guys decided,

Michelle Black: 13:15

just like, this argument, I was so frustrated still. I was like, Well, I'm getting in my car. I'll see you at your house. And of course, it's all his roommates, and we're like, we're not starting rumors here, like, you know, churches. So that it was like, let's, let's plan for our next hike, or we had already planned it, or something, I don't know, but it wasn't much later we went on that hike, and that's when it was like, All right, you know, because you're working so much, especially to be able to afford to live in Mammoth I must have had three or four jobs. He had two probably. I mean, he was playing online poker for a living, but he was trying to have an honest job by, like, going to some construction site every day and working there. But he made more money at poker. He didn't really need the second job, so

Unknown: 14:00

he gave up knitting. He wasn't enough to

Michelle Black: 14:04

pursue that I had the corner on the market there.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 14:10

You know, Michelle Brian wasn't continuing this path of memory. Brian wasn't just a soldier. He was also an athlete. You just mentioned he was a chess champion, a stock analyst. I mean, he was creating an app for picking stocks, and he was a linguistic so could you share a favorite story that really captures who Brian was, not just as a Green Beret, but as a husband and a father of your two boys?

Michelle Black: 14:37

Oh my gosh. Um, there's just so many like, how do I, how do I tell one story that encapsulates, it's, you know, all of it. It's, you know, he would come home and he would I would find him. There were a couple places I would find him. I would find him either out and it was before the kids would get home from. School, he'd be out in the backyard smoking a cigar with all of his coloring things. And he'd be working on A and P books like color, coloring in the whatever they are, anatomy and physiology, whatever, tracing the I'm not science, you know, I didn't know science classes or whatever, but he was all about it. So he was really into medicine, really, into all of that. So he, because he was a Green Beret 18 Delta medical sergeant, which are extremely they're super highly trained. So yeah, he would his rotations got to be going into hospitals like in Richmond, Virginia, working in the burn unit and working in the ER, helping with gunshot wound victims. He was highly trained on gunshot wounds, and so I would find him in the backyard smoking his cigar. He would be starting off some meat that he's smoking in his in his Weber smoker, and he would be coloring, and the boys would come out and join him. And he'd go through it with Isaac. Isaac's really my youngest, super interested in all of that stuff. So he wants to be in the medical field. And he started, you know, talking about that when he was six or seven years old. So he'd get out his little body, you know, books and read those. And he wanted real, live pictures of sections of the heart and things. And so that was Brian and Isaac out there, and Zeke was like a wild animal. I don't know. He was crazy, so, yeah, so if Zeke started doing his thing, he was always in trouble for something, you know. And so it was okay, you know, that's it. We're both working today, and Zeke could get home and be in trouble. And it's, we're carrying rocks up and down the yard until you're done. And you're never going to do this again, you know. So it was, you know, we're going to carry boulders. We're going to carry this. And the kids, oh my gosh, horrible. And you know, you're going to call your teacher name again, no, I swear. So okay, it's handled, you know. But then other days, he's, you know, because he was a he did. MMA, I remember when we first met, he told me he was a cage fighter. I didn't know what that was. I thought it meant that you swung in cages above a club. Why are you telling me that, like you're bragging like, that's so disturbing. I told me to tell people that. Yeah, it turns out he was, he was, he was into MMA. So then he got the boys into wrestling, and they clear all the furniture out in the in the front room, and he'd teach them like choke holds and take downs and whatever. And, of course, he's six two, and they're like, you know, two feet tall, and so they're having all sorts of fun. And the boys, I mean, Zeke was more like WWE. He'd jump off the couch and body slam. Brian knocked the window. Of course, he involved, like his big dump trucks, you know? So, yeah, it was, it was intense, but Brian was a good sport. So I have

Dr. Spencer Baron: 18:00

to laugh at the that, the fact that you described earlier on, that smoking a cigar, cooking, cooking on the barbecue and the Weber Grill, and coloring. And I had this picture of a guy just coloring outside the lines and inside the line, you know, just two completely different characteristics, and then that is but obviously it was a lot more technical coloring than just a coloring book. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Black: 18:30

No. Just like, he's like, if I can get as much studying done and enjoy it and do the things I like to do, and do some things that I want to learn. I mean, he was like, it was like multitasking on a whole different level. So that was just one of the things he would do, you know. Or he, one time went out and outlined a book he was going to write, which he never got around to, because I was right before his last deployment. But, and then, you know, he wanted to learn to woodwork. So then he got all this woodworking gear, built me a whole like, you know, built in closet. Like, I mean, it was always something, you know, and then when he was really bored, he'd go upstairs and play chess and just like, basically get into fights on the chess boards, calling people names and, like, do you remember this one, you know, chess event we were all at in, you know, 1996 you remember, like, the apple juice tasted funny, you know? And that was like, Oh my gosh, you're harassing people. You're gonna get kicked off. And he'd make up his names. His names were always like, you know, Uranus, or, like, totally inappropriate all the time. And I was like, This is ridiculous, but it's how he entertained himself. Because he was, he was a teenager when he was doing a lot of the different chess events. And him and his buddies, of course, are like, bored, and no one suspects. The teenagers like pulling pranks on everybody, you know. So yeah, he'd be like, you know, we got a stink bomb and, like, threw it as we walked by. And, like, nobody suspect. I mean, just dumb stuff. I'm like, wow. And then he's getting on these chess boards, and he's like, I remember you from, you know, Philadelphia, 1994 and I'm like, Oh my gosh, really,

Unknown: 20:11

oh my gosh, that

Michelle Black: 20:12

is so fantastic. Or he'd get on Plants versus Zombies, the kids game, you know, and he would ambush little kids all night and laugh, giggling while I'm putting the kids to bed. I'm like, What are you doing? It's like, the minute the kids got off, Plants versus Zombies, he got on, he'd get a beer and sit around and drink his beer and just ambush little kids. That's great. That's a true

Unknown: 20:45

menace to that. Game plans versus Zombies, yeah,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 20:49

yeah, that is great. I would, I would hear my son in the other room, who's usually pretty reserved and quite yelling and cursing at somebody on online. And we would go, Who are you talking to, it was probably your husband, but anyway, oh my gosh, that's great. I tell you, that's been, that is great recollection of, you know, some really good times I want, I want to ask you about, you know, I'm so curious, it's hard to relate to certain things, like, you know, fears and risks of being a in a military family and you know, having, you know Brian and you obviously had conversations about those risks before his deployment to Niger. What was, what were some of the things you chose not to dwell on, or certain things that you did communicate about,

Michelle Black: 21:43

you know, we didn't communicate much about risks, not with the first two deployments. The first one was to Afghanistan. I knew he was on a B team, so he wouldn't really be going outside the wire too much into risky situations. B is more B teams are more support than anything else. They're not likely to get into a gunfight. I mean, yeah, they have incoming, you know, rockets and stuff, but generally, there's not going to be any issues. And so I never really worried about that. The first deployment to Marathi Niger was like in the southern part, closer to Nigeria, which is, you know, concerning, but it seemed pretty calm there. And I just, I've always kind of gone with my gut. How do I feel? Things are I never worried, never really thought about it, never asked many questions. It was more, more of the attitude, well, and I think because he had been in so many years of training. When you're going through the Q Course, it's three to four years of training, summer two. It depends on the job. But because he had Arabic as his language and the medical as his job, his was longer. So you know, you're three to four years of him being gone for a month, back for a week, gone for two months, back for a month. And so you're getting used to these long stretches like he's never really there. And so even when he's there, he's working so much and doing so so much training, even on base, that he's gone at two, three in the morning, getting home anywhere between two in the afternoon and six o'clock at night. So it's a really unpredictable schedule. So you just get used to they're gone, unless they're here, so unless they're getting their month off or whatever, they're gone. And so by the time he was deploying, it's just you get used to this kind of mentality where you separate things out. If they're gone, you can almost make it so that they don't exist until they're coming back, so that you don't constantly worry, and you're not constantly thinking about them, because if you do, that's where the problem comes in. So you have to get really good at just, you know, they're gone. They're not you know, they don't exist. And then, okay, I might get a phone call tonight, and you keep track in your mind if it's been too long since you heard from him. So like with the first deployment, he said, I don't know when you'll hear from me, which told me it could be up to two months before he can call me. So I just go. I don't think about it until I hear from him the first time, and then once I hear from him. Then he says, Okay, you will hear from me. You know, once a week, once to one to two times a week, maybe Okay. So then I can separate out when it's going to be too long and when you know what I mean. So you get used to, like, How long till you actually have a worry in your head? And then you go, okay. So I'm worried today, which means if I don't hear from him within 36 hours, then I'm really concerned. So that's kind of how you play that game. The second deployment was different, because before he even left, I just had a horrible feeling deep inside me where I just went, This is not okay. Something's wrong. I don't want him to leave. I actually, I never before. It was just like. Okay, like, have fun. I'll see you in six months. Like, peck on the cheek, you know, whatever. I'll talk to you when I can talk to you. And this time, it was more like, I do not want you to go. And he, you could tell he was kind of doing the same thing, like he was hesitating. And there was a It just felt bigger. And I don't know how to explain it. And from the day he left, I was I would catch myself walking through our kitchen, which overlooked the whole front of the house, and I'd look out to look for uniforms coming across the grass. So because it was only five weeks, I want to say five weeks into the deployment when he was killed. He left August 26 and he was killed October 4.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 25:43

Okay, so you mentioned earlier about your you have a good gut feeling about things intuitively. And so that day, October 4, 2017, is the day that your world changed. But what did you What did you experience before that that you started realizing that something could have been terribly wrong.

Michelle Black: 26:09

So I'd had this experience the week my dad died, and I was walking across my bedroom the day Brian was killed, and it's just this overall feeling of peace, and I call it like the presence of God. I know with my dad, we I'd always prayed that he would live long enough to see me get married, and then when he got married, I freaked out, and I was like, until, you know he knows my kids. And then I remember a day where I was living at his house with the kids while Brian was in in basic and it was same thing. I just finished a run with him. He went in the house, and I felt the presence of God like just solid peace come over me. And it was like, does he know your kids? And in my head, I said, Yeah, he knows my kids. And I remember thinking it was almost like this handshake, like, you know, like, we've, we've, we've hit that point and, and, you know what spares, you know, like this. This is the, I don't know what you'd say, like, the fulfillment of my agreement, and my dad was dead within 24 hours. And so this was the feeling that kind of came over me with Brian. It was just this feeling of like everything's going to be okay, this level of peace and presence. And then I remember thinking like feeling that, and then thinking, oh my gosh, what is wrong? And starting to panic, and then thinking, No, he said, everything's going to be okay. I have to just accept that until I know what's wrong. And so by nine o'clock that because that would must have been nine, 9am that day, probably about when the ambush was happening, by nine o'clock that night, I had a knock at the door and Brian was dead.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 28:07

Wow. So between Brian and your dad with you, did your dad suddenly die? Or had he been sick for a while? And did you anticipate that happening?

Michelle Black: 28:20

No, he suddenly died. He had a massive heart attack.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 28:25

So these are two events in your life that you had a premonition or you had a feeling. Is that, do you feel that that's because of the closeness that you had with these two individual, your dad and Brian, that you felt something from above that you felt inside.

Michelle Black: 28:46

I think so, yeah, I imagine so. I think when you know, when you have a real close relationship with someone, and it's going to change your whole life. And you know, how you react to it is going to affect everything. Yeah, I think it helped, like, I think I feel it coming, and I also think it helps me when I know ahead of time with how I react and handled things. You know, with my dad, there was just so much chaos, and there were so many people, because I was living with my parents at the time, and Brian was at Basic and I had two little kids, and one's on the spectrum, and and I have a huge family and everybody, it just was like this huge explosion of chaos and and so to be able to remain calm and not be someone panicking was important. And I think it was just that piece that came with it that helped. And I needed that. And I think some people around me probably needed that too. And same with Brian. I mean, it was, it was a huge explosion. And. And I, you know, the kids needed me to be calm. Everybody needed me to be calm. And, I mean, you have shock naturally, you know, which helps to not panic in that situation is also important. So, yeah, I do think because they were so close to me, which is why I felt that

Dr. Spencer Baron: 30:19

Michelle, feeling that, that sense of control, that emotion that would normally wreck people, you held it together. Why? Why? How did you hold it together? Because, I mean, I've seen people get hysterical from a death, even one that they know that's coming because somebody had been sick for so long, or in hospice, or what have you. How did, how do you do that? What was it that summoned that ability to pull together?

Michelle Black: 30:55

I think it's a whole mixture of things. I think the more you've and I don't know if this is always true, but I think sometimes, when you've gone through a lot of really difficult, scary situations in your life, you begin to realize, and I think, you know, er, doctors probably experience this, you have to remain calm, because freaking out isn't going to do anything. And in the end, everything is going to work out, and you only have so much control of every situation. And you know, it's it's like me and my sister both have a seizure disorder, and I remember the first time my sister had a seizure, and we have two different types, and she was 12 when she developed hers, and I remember I thought that she had fallen, and that's why she'd had one. And I remember panicking and freaking out, and then she, you know, continued to have some over the next couple of years. And then eventually she was fine. They got her medication. They got it figured out, and I realized whether I've panicked and, you know, ran up and down the driveway trying to flag down emergency vehicles came unhinged like she doesn't know the difference. She woke up. She's fine, everything's fine. And if everything hadn't been fine, my freaking out wouldn't have made a difference. And then, of course, I started having them and anybody panicking around me, they made the situation worse. They never made it better, and I was perfectly fine, you know, but to them, the whole world had exploded because they saw someone that had a seizure. And it's like being freaking out never helps anything. You're more likely to help if you're calm. And my freaking out isn't going to bring Brian back. It's, you know, it was going to bring my dad back. It was more important to me to figure out what the next steps were, because life continues no matter how much you don't want it to, you know, you want to stop. You know, like when Brian died, I felt like I died too, but I had kids still there. I had his parents there. I had people that I needed to keep alive and keep moving forward and keep up with life. So I think that's more what it is that

Dr. Spencer Baron: 33:07

that is a characteristic or attribute that needs to be commended, because sometimes people freaking out becomes their identity, and they worry about everything, and that is obviously not a healthy thing to experience hormonally. It raises cortisol levels, stress you out. Get you old fast, you know. So I commend you on that, and I delved into that because I want people to be able to adopt that kind of kind of character, you know, everything will be alright. It's okay, hope for the best, anticipate the worst. You know, just be, be okay with it. So I appreciate you sharing that with that said, shortly after all that talk about more freaking out, but you had found yourself immersed in national in a national spotlight, dealing with not only grief, but a massive amount of media attention. And I remember this going on even, you know, even the country you know, the condolence from you got a call from President Trump, and it was a condolence call. I remember hearing about this. So it's almost, you know, an honor meeting the person that was involved in this epicenter of this, you know. So what was it like managing that person lost through such public scrutiny?

Michelle Black: 34:27

I don't think it gives you enough room to actually grieve. I remember thinking that I wished Brian had just died a normal death like I wish that was it. There were multiple things I felt. I wish that he had died, and his death had been able to stop the deaths of the rest of his teammates, because then there were more families having to go through that agony. And I thought, what if he had been able to, with his death, with his sacrifice, stop everybody else? And. In that group from dying like that. That would be okay. I'd be okay with that. But then I also thought, I wish he would have just like died. It would have been so much easier if he had just, you know, it been a standard military death, like, maybe He'd just gotten shot or killed in a rollover accident or not that that's standard, but it wouldn't have brought media attention. But unfortunately, I think when there's any sort of military incident and you've got Trump in office people, there's just such a polarizing effect that you're going to get one group who wants you to say one thing, and one group who wants you to say the other thing, and if you just speak the truth, you're going to piss everybody off and, you know, like it's, it's, there's no good way to handle it, you know, unfortunately. And so it became overwhelming, because everybody wanted to turn my husband's incident into Trump's fault, right? Because it's the largest loss of American life on the continent of Africa since Black Hawk Down and Trump just gets into office, and it's like, look right here, he's already screwing up the military. But the reality is that he wouldn't know what a Green Beret team of my husband's type is doing in the middle of nowhere Africa on an average Wednesday. So because there are so many operations going on. We had, at the time, I think, over 800 Special Operations troops on the continent, working in different areas, whether it was Chad, whether it was Niger, whether it was Nigeria, Nigeria with, you know, all over Syria and whatever. And you just don't hear about it. They're doing if, if we're partners or allies with, with a African country, and they say, Hey, we want you to help us come in. We want you to come in and help us combat ISIS and help us train some of our troops. That's why we were there. It was a by with and through mission. So we are there training their troops so they can defend their own borders. They were in there in a training capacity. It was supposed to be a training mission. They weren't there at war, like Americans typically think, or like the media tries to sell it. And so the minute something like this happens, because, of course, ISIS is like, Hey, we got some Americans. Let's kill them. This has nothing to do with war, or it wasn't a combat zone. It's just Wrong place, wrong time. And of course, that's not going to be a mission that Trump knows about, because we're just over there training, you know, the Nigerian people for basically as a favor to our partner. And so unfortunately, that's not how it's sold in the media. That's not how people see it. And so it instantly turned into, you know, this is Trump's fault, and your husband died because of him. And what are you doing in foreign nations trying to kill their people? And it's like we're just trying to train their troops. We really aren't doing much there. It's not that interesting. You know,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 37:59

I remember, I remember that clearly. And you know, we've all grown to doubt the media and social media, regular mainstream media, but for you, it was extraordinary that you started questioning the official military narrative. How did that happen in regards to Brian's team Niger. And what was really, what made you wonder, wait a minute, something that, again, your gut is that is taking place here. What was your What was that, that feeling you had, that something wasn't matching up? I

Michelle Black: 38:35

think one of the first things that really got me questioning was it wasn't long after the whole incident, we had a they always do these, what would you call them? Like unit memorials? So there's like, when somebody dies in the military, there's like 100,000 memorials. So there's all sorts of versions. There's a unit memorial that the unit puts on. And all the guys are there, finally back from Niger, and so they come to the after party at one of the bars, and I'm talking to them, and, you know, I asked them a couple questions, and they're like, oh, we can't really, you know, we were told not to speak to the families. And I was like, what? And they're like, we can't. They're like, we can talk to you, we just can't talk to you about the incident. And I was like, why? And they said, well, there's an official investigation going on, so they told us that we shouldn't say anything until it's over, and this is probably mid to end of October. And I said, Okay, well, fair enough, like you guys aren't allowed to talk about the incident. But then in January and February, there started to be media reports that you know, what are they? They always say. There have been anonymous comments from those within the investigation, basically leaking, saying that this team had acted like a bunch of cowboys, and you. Things like this, like they were seeking after a terrorist and trying to chase them down, and, you know, basically just, yeah, acting like a bunch of cowboys. And anybody who knows Green Berets and the level to their of their training, it's just they train for an extra four years. At least, they have probably over a million dollars worth of training poured into them. They are analyzed before you can even get into the program. They're given a psychological evaluation. They are giving given mental evaluations. They their mental acuity has to be through the roof. So they're some of the most brilliant and highly trained and psychologically maybe not stable, but they know that these guys don't go rogue, so they're not like you know your normal soldier. They know what their career looks like. They've worked hard for it, and they're not going to risk it. It's certainly not a whole team. You might get one guy who decides he's a cowboy, and everyone's just going to let him run off into the desert and kill his own career. They're not going to go with him. So the idea that there was a whole team of cowboys going rogue, of rogue Green Berets is beyond ridiculous. As far as my husband went, the minute I heard rogue and cowboy, my husband was the biggest dork you ever met. There's the guy is not a cowboy. He'd have been the guy going, you guys are dumb. I'm going back to base. That's Brian. Like, you guys are stupid. He'd insult everybody and just walk back to base. He wouldn't care. So, yeah, he's he's not the rogue guy. You wouldn't. Yeah, no. So it's the minute I heard that I just that was the number one red flag to me by then, because I thought, okay, guys can't talk to us, but somebody's talking to the media, and if it's an anonymous source, either they're completely illegitimate, or they are one of the officers or somebody higher up the chain who feels free to talk without any repercussions. That was my thought. And then about two months later, I heard, or I read, a newspaper article talking about an officer who was involved in all the video teleconferences and final like decision decisions made on the ground. And it happened to be the same officer had come to my house right after the incident and said, you know, we don't have any idea what's going on. It was a standard mission, you know, we'll let you know as we figure out what's going on. And then, you know, him and his wife had hung out and comforted me at these Memorial events, their kids played with my kids, and I thought this man came to my home, lied to me and tried to be the good guy, and I've heard nothing good about him from everyday soldiers, and now I'm reading that he was part of making the decisions at The highest level because he's a group commander, which means he's one of the main commanders over all of third group, which is everybody who's operating out of Prague as a Green Beret, which is a huge, huge position. So he's lying to me, and now come to find out, he was the decision maker for that incident. So he knows there wasn't just one standard mission. This was a very, very not standard mission. What

Dr. Terry Weyman: 43:31

have you learned since this this time? What have you learned since up to, like to up to this day, you know, especially of you know Memorial Day that of what these guys went through with, what have you learned about that that day since,

Michelle Black: 43:49

what I've learned is that they were basically abandoned by their own leadership in the country once they were just throughout it. So from the very beginning, they pushed back against the mission. They didn't want to do it. Then they were pushed, they were turned around on their way home and told to go further. And they once again, said, We can't do this on our own. We need a second we need a second team. And those higher up the chain said, Yeah, we agree, actually. So they brought in a second team. They headed up to the second mission, and the second team got canceled due to weather. So then they said, Well, we request to return to base. And then the leadership said, No, we still want you to complete the mission without doing all the checks they need to do, like making sure that the threat level hasn't changed. Because if the threat level is still the same, then why is it suddenly okay for one minute for one team to go? It's not. So they didn't run these threat assessments, they didn't do any of their due diligence, and then they didn't even fill out their concept of operations report properly. They didn't. They didn't. There's like, you know, who, what, when, where, why, how. So they have to have all. That filled out, run their second threat assessment, and fill it all the way out. And then then they could say, Okay, this mission is solid, and send the guys ahead on the third one. They didn't fill it out properly. They didn't get all that information. They just wanted them on the mission, so they ordered them ahead. These guys were not prepped for a three day mission. They were prepped for a one day mission out in the desert of Africa, Sub Saharan Africa, and they were going up to the most dangerous part of the country, up near the Mali border, which is a hotbed of terrorism. And they were followed for a while and then attacked. And once they were attacked, there was so little air support in the country, which my husband had actually told them there's an issue in Africa with medevac times being six to eight hours. AFRICOM had said that it was two to four hours or four it was around four hours. And my husband said, No, it's six to eight. And that means that if we have a serious issue on the ground, that person's more likely to die, to bleed out then survive their injury, and basically he was ignored. And this was the summer before he deployed, and nothing ever changed. Everyone had asked for increased like better vehicles. Our vehicles would get stuck in the dirt all the time. Our biggest issue were vehicle rollovers, and this had been an issue for years. AFRICOM never addressed it until after my husband's incident, when it blew up in the media. And then, once the guys were on the ground, they were overwhelmed by 200 militants to a team, a 10 man team, 11 man team, and all of their which is typical, all of their partner forces freaked out and ditched them, took off, and so it left those men fighting by themselves, and then the closest air support was the French over in Mali, or not Mali, sorry, over in I always say it wrong. It's like a log of doo goo or something like that. But so they were, they were over there, so it took them a little L or Burkina Faso, so they had to come in with fast movers. And then it became a nightmare. Of the guys, by then had lost all their trucks. They're an hour into the fight. They're being hunted through the little bit of like marshy forest there was. And so they were on foot being hunted by terrorists, and the only thing that stopped them from being murdered or killed were a bunch of fast movers from Burkina Faso French flew over about an hour into the fight as the guys came face to face with a bunch of terrorists. Wow. And then it took another four hours to get anybody to come in and actually pick them up. So they laid on the ground in that area, hiding for the next four hours because their communications were so bad that their radio would go up to a drone in the sky that went to a guy in Ohio who then had to call to the base in Niamey. Everything had to be translated to everybody, because they're working with the French. And basically, by the time they got a bird to land that at first, it was like a standoff, because the French wouldn't let the Americans on who weren't injured. They were like, we're here to only pick up the injured. I mean, it turned into an absolute nightmare. And so, and then on top of it, yeah, so and the guys still didn't know who was alive who was dead. They hadn't seen Brian or his whole truck. Yeah, pretty it was pretty crazy. You

Dr. Terry Weyman: 48:39

know, listening to this, I think people on Memorial Day will, you'll get some protesters, and I always feel that you're not allowed to protest unless you've actually put boots on the ground, you know? But you have these people out there that really don't know what it takes to be in a country of free to have conversations, right? So what? What being in the mix of it. What message can we how do we get this message out to what these these are human beings. They're trained, but they're still human beings. They're fighting for our country. What's your what's your message to the person who's never served, never had a family served, yet they're the ones on Twitter, on Facebook or on the street corner. What's your message to try and get the empathy that you understand so well?

Michelle Black: 49:30

You know, people who've never sacrificed anything, they won't understand empathy, the people who, there's such a small percentage, who sacrifice constantly, those who are, who do have empathy and get it and listen and haven't served. They've already been reached. Most of those people, they're not willing to, they would never be willing to sacrifice. For instance, Brian was killed, and when I look back and I see what he did, we have a there's a 45 Minute video of the actual incident, and it shows the other team, like the whole team, getting ready to leave. And Jeremiah goes up to Brian and says, Brian, what do we do? And Brian's the head of the truck because he's the highest ranked and been on the team the longest of Green Berets. And Brian says, We need to stay so that team, those three guys, chose to stay behind. Nobody ever talks about that. They chose to stay behind. Brian had gotten his Ranger tab. He was an expert on tactics, and he understood that they were being overwhelmed, and the best way to get those guys out of there was to draw all the fire on themselves. So he motioned for Dustin to move the truck into a blocking position, and Brian proceeded to expose himself over and over to enemy fire. And basically they drool the fire on themselves. And then at one point, Jeremiah got hit by exploding glass went down. Brian thought he had been shot, so Brian exposed himself again to try and save Jeremiah. And that's when he got hit and went down. Then Jeremiah ran out, exposing himself, trying to drag Brian back, you know? And that's kind of how it unfolded. And by then, Dustin got out, grabbed Brian, they drag him back try to, like, revive him, but he was dead the minute the bullet hit him in the head, and then the whole force overwhelmed their vehicle. So that is sacrifice. They all chose to stay behind and expose themselves multiple times in an effort to get the rest of the team out first, and then they were going to try and make their escape, but that was their choice. And my children know the story. And you know all of them, like all of their families, know the story. They saw that video, and yet, my 18 year old just went and joined the Marines. And that is a decision, that it was a whole family decision, because he wants to do what his dad did. He wants to be who his dad was. So sacrifice and service is it's a mentality. It's a family business. There's no money in it, but you understand, you understand, like, what it's worth, right? And so I didn't understand the worth of it before growing up like, you know, we had airplanes, we had boats, we had this nice, like, chill life. I was never worried about anybody. It was great. I wish I could live that checked out again, you know? But I am so proud of my son. I'm so proud of what Brian did. And I don't stand there in front of the flag now and just hold my hand over my heart and say, hey, you know, like, This is so nice, like I pledge allegiance to the flag, and I'm thinking, America, you know, I I'm a patriot. I put my hand over my heart to America, because that's thing I recited in school. Now, I think I have a much deeper understanding now, because, like, not only have I seen the flag, you know, it's like tall, like standing from a flagpole, tall and proud, right, like everybody has, and there's that big swelling of pride. But like this, this flag behind me. It stained with Brian's dried blood. It was handed to me after they placed it over Brian when he was very first killed, and his teammate kept it and handed it to me and said, was I okay with keeping it? He just saved it for me. So I've got a I've got a flag with my husband's dried blood on it. I've seen a flag, you know, through tears, laying across a wooden casket when they lowered him into the ground in Arlington, and I've seen it folded up in the arms of my children. And I'm acutely aware that that could all happen again, because my son is serving, and that is something that you can't teach, and when you experience it changes you to your core, and you understand that the America I grew up in is the America I want to see in the future, and there are people out there willing to give their lives to make sure it stays that way. And I don't care who the president is. I don't care who the politicians are. I care that America and Americans hold those values throughout eternity, because we are the one nation that cares about keeping freedom and also as the green Beretta motto goes, the oppressively there working to free the oppressed.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 54:43

So, wow, I gotta tell you, Michelle, you, you addressed the core of of what Memorial Day is about. I mean, you know, the things that we take for granted, like saying the pledge. Allegiance, you shed a completely different light on the power and the emotion that is really addressed when you pledge allegiance to our flag. So, you know, I thank you for that. I'm so curious is how you got so much detail about what really happened and why that was, you know, kept from you, obviously, to avoid, you know, blame and fault and all that. But you obviously did a great job. And you you write so well, it's riveting. The you know, some of what I had read that you were responsible for please tell me. How did you find out so much detail? Was it pieces or just from one person? So

Michelle Black: 55:51

once, once the investigation was complete, they had our family go to a family briefing. Each family got briefed, and we could go through and answer, ask questions, they said, and rewind and whatever. But I found was that I could ask numerous questions, and certain questions a lawyer would stand up and answer for everybody else, which was an indicator to me that I was getting a lot of answers that weren't answered. They were just the right verbiage. And there were times when he would would hand me backhanded compliments, like, you know, would you like to give us a suggestion? And I'd say, Yeah, you know, I think you guys should get little language training manuals and train these guys. Because the first thing that happened was, there, I'm getting into too many little details, but basically, their their interpreter got up and left, and in Africa, they speak, you know, over 20 languages, and they couldn't communicate with their partner force, which delayed them and caused more deaths, because they couldn't get them to load up into their vehicles. And I said, Brian may have spoken Hausa, but he didn't speak Zulu, he didn't speak all these other languages, right? And when you've got a huge partner force of 30 people, they might speak 30 different languages. And so I said, Why don't you get them a little book of languages, of common phrases in each language, and it could just be 10 words, like, get in the car, go, stop fire. And the I remember the response from the lawyer was, well, you know, Mrs. Black, that's really a great suggestion. But not everybody is as talented at languages as your husband is. And I thought, my God, he thinks I'm a complete moron if he thinks that I'm gonna fall for this like he's just being an ass. I mean, let's be real. And so I just said, Okay, thank you. But by the end of that, I realized they didn't respect the families whatsoever. And they were still saying that you need to realize that, you know, Mike perezini and the other men on the team are at fault for this. And they were trying to say it very nicely, and, you know, but don't worry, Mrs. Black, we will make sure that they're held responsible. And no matter how many ways I asked, Well, what about this concept of operations report? What about this detail? What about that they just kept saying, Well, you know, that was made by them, and they did it wrong, and these people may have done it wrong, but they're higher, they're higher level, and they can approve those things, and they got the right approvals. Mike didn't get the right approval. I mean, it was all this like semantics, essentially. And so finally, I said, Okay, well, that's great. And they said, don't worry, we will make sure that they are held accountable. And I thought, Well, surely this isn't going to happen. Um, there's still a media brief and that's going to be held with the commanding general of AFRICOM, who I hadn't gotten to speak with, and he didn't show up to our briefing, so I thought he will make sure to set this right. And instead, he repeated those same lines, and at the end someone said, Well, you know, what's the deal? You know, media is asking questions. Are they really, you know, operating well, or, you know, you happen to call them cowboys. And the general said that while all teams on the continent are performing optimally, this team is not indicative of what special operators do. And as you can imagine, I think I threw my phone across the room and it broke. I was so pissed. I was like, okay, that may have been the first time I totally panicked and started hyperventilating, because I just was so upset he had just insulted my husband and everyone who had fought and died alongside him. And I just thought, this isn't going to stand, and if I'm the only one who can affect this and bring the truth, then so be it. So I called up the men on the team. Actually, I think I talked to him at some ceremony we were doing for Memorial Day, ironically, and I said, this is what I want to do. I want to interview each and. Every one of you, one at a time, and I want to hear about what exactly happened on the ground. And they said, Oh, no, we don't want to involve you. And I said, The day my husband died, I became involved. What are they going to do? Kill my husband, lie to me, you know, play his death on TV. Sue me. I mean, I'd love to see him sue me. That would be fantastic. You know, sue a widow and that would, yeah. And so they finally were like, you know, you're right. They were already gearing up to be slapped with article 15 sixes, which would have ended their careers. And so I said, at this point, there's nothing that is going to get you in more trouble. So why won't you just sit down with me? And I said, the next thing you know, the media, who have been blaming you this whole time, are going to become your best friends and want to interview you. Do you trust them, or do you trust me? And so they went, Okay, we'll talk with you. And so I think it took about two or three months I started sitting down with him one at a time and going through everything. I talked with Casey, who used to be a part of the team, and now he was working back at the AOB, running communications to the men on the ground. And then anything extra I wanted to ask of officers who didn't want their names involved, he would just ask them for me, and I'd get all the information I wanted. And then, and, you know, so off the record, but and then I would give them fake names. And then I interviewed multiple, all the guys who were on the ground, except for one or two who just didn't want to be interviewed. And then a former South Africa commander, and I think, general Bulldog, I interviewed Alan van San, who was a major who lost his job over the incident, but was not in country. He was on paternity leave at the time. And then I interviewed, I just interviewed multiple people who, you know, were officers and just anyone who would talk to me so but the most detail I got was from the guys on the ground that day

Dr. Terry Weyman: 1:02:01

who you wrote a you keep, yeah, you keep using the word sacrifice, and that turned out to be the title of your book, which I'm going to be reading again on Memorial Day, because I think it's a good way of reminding me what's what goes on. It was so fabulously written. It was so powerful, it was so personal. Was did you write this to get the message out, or of a cathartic healing for yourself?

Michelle Black: 1:02:32

I think initially it started as the only way to combat all the lies and bring the truth to light, because I thought writing is permanent. You know, once something's in book form, it's forever, and the only way to fight it is to write another book or come out with some sort of show or whatever. So initially, I wrote it just because I thought the truth needs to be written down. It needs to be out there. And good luck getting the media to listen to you at the time, you know. And then it became cathartic the more I wrote. Initially, I was when Brian died, I just started journaling because I thought, I'm gonna write everything down, because these, you know, as I raised the kids, they need to know who their dad was, you know, who they are, all of that and what went on, and it was cathartic. But once everything happened, I thought, wow, I've got this whole journal of what's happened over the last several months, and this will be a part of the book. So it was a mix of cathartic and, yeah, bringing the truth to life.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:03:39

Michelle, I want to lighten things up a little bit like I mentioned earlier. We're going to wrap up the show with our rapid fire questions, still relevant to you and your emotions and everything, but we're going to make it a little more lighthearted, and if you're ready, I have five questions for you that I want to ask. Are you prepared to be quick on your feet with answers. I'm always

Michelle Black: 1:04:01

pretty slow, but I'll try. We'll hold

Unknown: 1:04:07

up a white flag for you. Hold on a second question number one, if you could have dinner with any historical figure, who would it

Michelle Black: 1:04:18

be? Oh, gosh, I

Unknown: 1:04:23

Oh, I think we got her too.

Michelle Black: 1:04:28

I think I would want to have dinner with maybe Eleanor Roosevelt, one of the President's wives. I think that'd be so interesting. How come? Because they've seen a lot of things. They've been in the background, and they've seen the true side of things, not just the public side. And if enough time has passed, they might be willing to give me some details.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:04:54

Excellent, excellent question number two, this is a little more light and a little easier. What. A hobby or activity that always brings you joy,

Michelle Black: 1:05:05

hiking, definitely hiking or snowshoeing, or skiing,

Unknown: 1:05:10

snowshoeing, I would have no idea about snowshoeing from South

Dr. Terry Weyman: 1:05:14

Florida. You're in Florida. Yeah. Question number three,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:05:17

what's one lesson from Brian that you strive to pass on to your boys.

Michelle Black: 1:05:24

You're never the smartest person in the room.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:05:27

Nice, good. And question number four out of five we have, how do you and your boys honor Brian's memory on that special Memorial Day,

Michelle Black: 1:05:40

we talk about him a lot. The boys have always run with wear blue run to remember, although they're not doing it this year, where they would run and pass his his picture, and, you know, talk about their dad. So usually it's just a big talk about Brian day. I mean, we talk about him a lot anyway, but, you know, a little extra on that day. So now that they're getting older, maybe a maybe a little shot of whiskey for them once they get their 20s earlier. But

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:06:11

that's fantastic. All right. Question number five and last as a gold star widow, what's one thing that you wish people knew about Memorial Day? And this is a good way to end, because that's something that we're trying to get across. What do you what do you think that would be?

Michelle Black: 1:06:34

Gosh, just about Memorial Day. I think when people think about Memorial Day, they think one person, right? They think about the person who died, or they think about their spouse. But Memorial Day affects everybody in my family now. It affects Brian's brother, both of his parents, his grandparents, his aunts, his uncles, his his nieces, nephews, cousins. It's his death alone my family. It affects my mom, my brothers, siblings, nieces, you know all that. So one death on Memorial Day leaves 100 to 200 people in that family. Re you know what I mean. Memorial Day means so much to so many more people each time someone dies, people who've never experienced it. At this point, I have from a family who never served. I now have two nephews who joined the Air Force, a niece who joined the Air Force, and now my son who joined, you know, the Marines, and then I've got another one who's trying to go. He's currently finishing up out at, what is that, the college, and he's going into special operations as a as an officer. Wow. So Well,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:08:02

Brian definitely left some a very positive influence. Obviously, he had leadership qualities that have left repercussions. And that's that's a beautiful thing. Thank you. Thank you, Michelle for for being on the show. It's been an honor and a privilege and and I know that Dr Terry, it means a lot to him to get that Memorial Day the true message of what Memorial Day means. Thank you very

Michelle Black: 1:08:30

much. I really appreciate you guys having me on. It's really been fun talking. And you know, obviously I always love talking about Brian. So, you know, any opportunity, but I do love sharing about memorial day too, because a lot of people just don't, they don't get the big picture, you know? And I mean, like I said, I'm guilty of that back when I was younger. So

Dr. Terry Weyman: 1:08:53

thank you so much. And God bless you. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:08:59

Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Kraken backs podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at Kraken backs podcast. Catch new episodes every Monday. See you next time you.