Train Smarter, Recover Better, Move Freer - Dr. Mike Stella

What if everything you thought about injury rehab, performance, and recovery was dead wrong?

On this electrifying episode of the Crackin’ Backs Podcast, we sit down with Mike Stella, ATC—renegade athletic trainer, movement expert, founder of Movement Underground, and outspoken critic of traditional rehab models. Known for his game-changing mantra, “We don’t change tissue; we change movement,” Mike is flipping the script on how we think about healing and performance.

But this philosophy wasn’t born in a lab—it was forged through pain. A career-ending knee injury, a single-parent home without resources, and a system that left him behind inspired Mike’s relentless pursuit of answers. From a high school trainer who changed his life to working with elite athletes like the Florida Gators, Mike refused to accept mediocre results and built a recovery method rooted in function, intuition, and results—not insurance billing.

We dive into:

•  Why most modern rehab protocols fail
• The myth of linear recovery and the truth about plateaus and flares
• How burnout, overtraining, and perfectionism sabotage high-performers
• Red flags in the wellness industry and the danger of influencer-driven advice
• Building a sustainable, relationship-driven practice that prioritizes quality care

If you’re a healthcare provider, athlete, coach, therapist, or simply tired of the cookie-cutter “rest and ice” approach, this episode will challenge everything you know—and leave you questioning the status quo.

Don’t miss this raw, real, and radically honest conversation with one of rehab’s true revolutionaries.

Listen now and rediscover the power of movement.

Learn more about Mike Stella and the Movement Underground:

 https://www.movementunderground.com
The Movement Underground Podcast:

We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.

Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Transcript

Dr. Spencer Baron: 0:00

What happens when you feel the current healthcare system is absolutely flawed, but you refuse to concede after a career ending knee injury and no resources to rebuild, Mike Stella didn't give up. He got curious from the sidelines of high level lacrosse to training rooms of the University of Florida Gators, Mike forged a new path, one that doesn't Chase insurance codes. It chases results. Today, he's the founder of movement underground, challenging the rehab world with one bold truth, we don't change tissue. We change movement. This episode is a call to arms for anyone tired of cookie cutter, toxic fitness fads, false premises. It's it's a time to rethink recovery, and Mike is leading the charge. Good morning, afternoon, whatever it is for our listening audience and viewing audience, welcome Mike Stella, athletic trainer at large. How you doing? Man,

Mike Stella: 1:05

I'm doing excellent. How about yourself? Very, very well, very well.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:09

I'm looking forward to having a conversation with you. Dr Terry, has turned me on to the idea that you are a renegade in that world of healthcare. Obviously, you have a company called the movement underground, which I want to know more about cool. And you've been doing this for about 20 years, from what I understand, or 20 plus years, right? Sure, yeah. You know, one of the interesting things that I want to make sure we get into is the way the healthcare landscape is changing. You know, I love that your philosophy is how you there's the conveyor belt healthcare system, which you know, physical therapists tend to, you know, in athletic trainers, even chiropractic, especially chiropractors and medical chiropractors, for sure, of course, of course. And we refer Dr Terry and I refer to those as the crack and go locations,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 2:05

right? No, the Tiktok chiropractors,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 2:08

right, right. I want to know how you acquired, let's start by, you know, how you acquired this concept of removing yourself from conventional rehab, and, you know, entering this philosophy that we think is really, really coming of age and important for those who really care about their health.

Unknown: 2:29

Well, first, I mean, hey, thank you both for for having me on. I really, really appreciate it such that's a great question, um, and part of it is truthfully born out of just my own journey as an injured athlete, you know, and you know, I got, I was a lacrosse player in high school with designs to play on a full scholarship in college, and I ended up blowing out my knee, ACL, PCL, MCL, meniscus, tibial plateau fracture, the whole shebang. So, oh yeah, yeah, the official diagnosis was fucked. So that really is what set me on the path the sports medicine.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 3:05

Hey, Mike. Hey, Mike, what ICD nine code is that? Do you know? Yeah,

Unknown: 3:09

well, listen, Dr Terry, I don't know we're on ICD 10 now. So it's under the right, right. It's under the FUBAR classification. Like, what can we do to milk this guy's insurance anyway? Yeah? Oh, that's cool. So, yeah, that was what set me on the original, like, sports medicine path and my high school athletic you know, I grew up in a my a single parent household, you know, my mom didn't have really the resources to help me, or didn't know what to do. So I we really leaned on my high school athletic trainer, and she was amazing, and she really took it upon herself to, like, guide us and get us with the right docs and the right PTS, and that could work with me and kind of get me back, or try to get me back to where I was and where I wanted to be. And unfortunately, that actually never happened for me, even though I, you know, I believe I worked my ass off. I did everything my therapist and physicians and support told me to do, I just never could get back to my prior level of performance. And so, you know, as it were, I struggled with that, you know, as a person, you know, individually, right? So a lot of depression, a lot of chronic pain issues, and then I get into my athletic training career, and you know, my first, my first job out of school was at the University of Florida for the Florida Gators. So I was immediately working with the top athletes, coaches, you know, in the nation, you know, and that was in 2008 during the Tim Tebow era, right? So I was on the sideline for that 2008 national championship game. I was a part of that whole process and seeing elite level sports done at scale and and I was just hooked. Man. I was just absolutely hooked the environment, the and really athletic training. And one of the things that I love, fell in love with about it, is it is one of the few, if not the only, healthcare profession where it's like you're in the trenches with your patient. Population every day, and we're not worried about billing, we're not worried about coding, we're not worried about reimbursement, we're just worried about results. That's it. That's the only directive is, how do we get these athletes to stay on the field and perform at their best, or if they do get hurt, how do we minimize the collateral damage and get them back? You know, again, they're assets, right? So that mindset just always stuck with me. And then, you know, I don't know how familiar you guys are with athletic training, as cool of a profession as it is, it pays dog shit, right? So here I am working with multi million dollar athletes, and I'm making$6.50 an hour. And then even as I progressed and I was a full time athletic trainer at other division one institutions, I was making less than 30 grand a year to work 60 to 80 hour weeks. So even though it was an amazing clinical experience, it just, it just burnt me out, because I just couldn't sustain the level of output to do it at the level that I believed it needed to be done. And then, you know, just fast forward, I worked in a PT clinic, and I and then once I removed myself from, like, the athletic training world, and put myself into the private, conventional medical system, and then I'm really looking around and looking at it through the lens of what I had just experienced. I'm like, This is the worst thing ever. Like, none of these people are gonna get better. They're just not getting what they need, because it's just a conveyor belt to your point, you know? And so at that point, I was not in a good financial place, so going back to school, which is what a lot of athletic trainers end up doing, is going back becoming a PT or Cairo to get a bigger scope of practice. And and I said, You know what? Fuck that. I am good at what I do, I believe I can help a lot of people staying within my lane and my scope. As an athletic trainer at the time, there was no precedent for at and private practice like nobody was really doing it, so I was just like, I'm gonna go for it and double down and bet on me. And if I fail, I've got nothing to lose. I'm already at rock bottom right, so if I then, I'll just go get a real job somewhere else, or a regular, you know, cubicle job. But that was over 10 years ago, and been doing it ever since.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 7:14

That's pretty cool. Mike, you know, it's interesting because, oh, let me ask you, Were you there when the pounces were there? Yes, yeah, yeah. They became patients of mine because I was with the Miami Dolphins.

Unknown: 7:25

That's awesome, yeah? Great, dudes. That was a, I was a wild locker room, I guess Gator days, man,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 7:33

there's a, there was a documentary on that era

Unknown: 7:37

swamp kings, yeah. Why? If you watch some of the scenes. There's some of the because I was there, you know, obviously that documentary spans, like, multiple years. I was only there for that one year, and my primary sport assignment was actually track and field, but I volunteered with football. So all the hours I did with football, I did for free. I did it just for the experience. But you'll see me like, pushing Gatorade carts, like, through the background, like, with a lot more hair and no no goatee, but, you know, a lot younger. But it was, it was a really, really, I call it sports medicine in a bubble. You know, it was like I was in a silo of just the most advanced stuff you could possibly be doing at scale. And it was a really, really cool way to start the career.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 8:22

That's great, because I I deeply feel that what Dr Terry and I do with sports medicine is probably the best health care in the world, because it's performance based, and it's really about me, especially with the pro athlete. You know, it's not like Mrs. Little Miss Jones coming in and saying, Oh, I feel better. No, I want to know exactly how you feel better. And what is it that we need to achieve with that and to do that, seeing the pro guys get the best of the best health care is more obvious to me, now than ever before. That's awesome. It's just so, it's good. So what you did, obviously, going through all that helped for your, you know, experiences now for sure, with athletes, yeah, did, did you always open the your your facility with that perspective? Or has it changed over

Unknown: 9:21

the 10 years? Like, in terms of what, like, clinical perspective,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 9:24

or, yeah, like, how you take care of a patient now, when they walk

Unknown: 9:28

in, you know, I think, you know, trends come and go in terms of, like, you know, what's like, the hot, new modalities and that kind of stuff. I try not to get hung up in that stuff as much. I think, from like, a core philosophy standpoint, it is the same philosophy that it was when I first started this 20 years ago, which is first class or slash results by any means necessary. That's the mindset. It's, you know, if something has a 1% effect size, I'm willing to do that work, yeah, for that person. And I think that's like, by contrast, the difference. It's between like conventional medicine and what I call athletic medicine, which is, you know, most people struggling day to day with their fitness, with their health, with pain, they don't do the basic things well, you know, they don't take care of their food, they don't take care of their sleep, they don't take care of themselves, really, right? And so it's hard to help somebody with a, let's say, a pain problem or a movement problem when you know, when they have a lot of, like, co morbidities or other things stacked against them, when I'm looking at an athlete, right, like a metabolically fit, neurologically intact, healthy individual, that's kind of where I see a lot of the efficacy and like the what we're doing from manual therapy or modality standpoint is like we can get if they can do the basics savagely well and be 85% there, and I can use all the tools in my toolbox to get them from 85 to 95 that's Athletic medicine. It's opt like optimization everywhere you can again, to reduce collateral damage and to streamline that, streamline that process back to again. Whatever the end result that we're looking for is that return of competition, usually or so again, I just try to take that mindset, because there are people in the private sector that want that. They want their provider to be a passionate about what they do, but really an expert in what they do, and take the time to work with you on it. They want to know why they have their issues. And so those are the types of people that I'm looking to work with and attract. Is the people who want a better answer than Oh, it hurts when you do that. Just don't do that. It's like, if that pisses you off, then come to the movement underground, and I'll find it. We'll find a way to help you do what you want to do.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 11:44

That's great. And it's also interesting that you said earlier that athletic trainers get stuck with the positioning of a certain income level, but yet they're putting their all, and they're, they're, you know, genius into getting you better faster, and yet there's always like a cap on that salary. And what was interesting in any of the places that I've been with professional athletes that the strength and conditioning coach, the fact that they used to be just called strength and conditioning. But when they adopted the term coach, suddenly it changes the whole collective bargaining agreement. Now, as a coach, they're entitled to, you know, everything that a regular coach was entitled to. You know, retirements, you know every you know, all that, whereas the athletic trainer never was. It never captured that market, that market space. So, yeah, you're Bravo. Bravo to you. Let me

Dr. Terry Weyman: 12:47

ask you one thing, don't you? Don't you? Also notice, Mike, that the athletic trainer is considered the boss of the athlete, right? So the doctors go to them, the strength coach goes to them. They're considered the call triage. They're the parents. They're triage, but they're the parent, they're the they are the boss, and yet they get paid the least. It's so wrong. So it's,

Unknown: 13:12

I think, I think part there's, I think there's, it's a, it's a multifaceted problem, right and and maybe I'm not the right guy to ask, because I have strong opinions on this. I've tried to step in, like, at the, you know, N, a T, a level, to help, and try to like, Hey, here's what I've been able to do to raise awareness. Like, let me help. And then they're not interested, because I'm, like, you said a renegade, like, I'm the black sheep. They're like, Oh, he's not filling the mold of what we expect. And so I'm kind of, like, held it a little bit of arm's distance, but my unpopular opinions on this is a it's a really cool job. And so when I went to when I there was no negotiating with the University of Florida like Mike, we like you, we'll pay you $6.50 an hour to have access to this experience and these athletes and work in this setting, in the SEC and if you don't want it, that's fine. We'll just go to the next person. So it ends up becoming a race to the bottom, because somebody will say yes to that crap salary, right? Because it is a cool job. The second part of it is, I think a lot of athletic trainers are get too comfortable with that behind the scenes role, right? It's like, I get to be, you know, I'm an athlete support staff, and that none of a lot of people in my profession just play small, because it's almost like indoctrinated into us in our schooling, right? We're here, yeah, we're the switchboard operator. We're collaborating with the athletes and coaches every day, but also physicians of every specialty, parents, administrators, other support staff, you know, like when I was in the collegiate setting, you know, I was interacting with operations, security. I mean, there were so many different facets to how you deliver sports medicine, like I had to know tactically, where the entry and exit points were for, you know, emergency situations. I mean, if you looked at what we would do pregame for a Florida football game, like the entire athletic training staff before the game, like we're spending all morning and all day prepping this stadium, in this field and these athletes to go to war. But then minutes before kickoff, we're in the tunnel practicing spine boarding, you know, getting ready so that everybody knows exactly what their role is like Damar hamlin's life being saved on the sideline of a Buffalo Bills game. That's not a mistake. That's preparation and what people saw. And these are the unfortunate thing is, those are the moments where athletic trainers get a little bit of recognition for all the behind the scenes work. Is like he didn't, he didn't like look around to find the team physician. He started to execute the emergency action plan. Yeah, right. And so those are the things that, again, people get a little bit of recognition for, but the amount of work and effort and time, holidays, weekends, nights, traveling. My days off used to be, oh, we'd be on a red eye flight back from some city, and it's like, okay, that's your day off. Let's get ready. Then we got to get the action athletes ready the next day. But again, as far as like, clinical experience goes, it's like, how do you beat that? How do you how do you beat that experience of like, being in that every day, like, the amount, like, if you talk about the 10,000 hour rule to mastery, I was, I had 2000 hours in before I even graduated from my undergrad degree. So it's just a really cool so becomes a race to the bottom, and unfortunately, the people who've made it in the profession there, a lot of the attitude is, well, I had to struggle, therefore the next generation has to struggle. And I'm just like, F that, man, if I've got to be the first guy through the fence and I'm going to end up being the bloodiest. Well, you know what? I'm going to open the fence for the guy behind me, hopefully he can help me out a little bit down the road. And, you know, I never intended to be like an athletic training advocate. That was never my mission. But now I've achieved what I've achieved, and people look at me that way. And I, you know, now I feel it's my responsibility to try to raise the bar for everybody else,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 17:01

good for you. Good for you. We my action, my associate, who's a chiropractor, had he was a intern as an athletic trainer for the New York Jets cool. And his his way of approaching a patient, it's a blend of chiropractic and athletic training, and it just so it's i He does stuff that I don't even want to do, so I offer the patient open to them to continue treatment. So bravo to the athletic trainer.

Unknown: 17:26

Really, I think I was close to going to Chiro school. It a fun store. So when I was at UF one of my jobs for track was we had, we had a team chiropractor who'd come to campus, like once or twice a week. And so normally what we would do is, like, the athletes who really needed, like, maybe more manual therapy, table time, because I was having a treat, like 5060, athletes a day. So it's a lot of volume, and I was working with a lot of healthy athletes, right? So when we had, like, specialty cases, odd injuries, Dr David West was our team. Cairo, he'd come in and I would manage his little in, in house clinic. So I'd make sure the athletes were there on time. I'd help with, you know, his schedule, and then he had started, he was the one that really introduced me to, like, Graston and some of the instrument assisted stuff early in my career, and when I was moving on to go to grad school, he hands me an envelope. And I was like, I was like, What's this? He's like, he's like, this is your recommendation to chiropractic school. I was like, I'm not going to chiropractic school. He's like, Yeah, but you should be. He's like, so when you wake up from whatever delusion you're living in, you'll have it and you'll be ready to go and Palmer. And I was like, Oh, that's awesome. Man, I appreciate that, but he was a really huge influence on me early in my career. And again, I was the type was, like, I'm willing to learn from anybody. Man, if you've got something to teach, I'm down. Like, Sign me up. I'm there. You know, I don't care if you're a Cairo, a PT, a strength coach, a physician, or just some really smart dude that knows their shit. Like, I don't look at the credential as your value. I look at the person behind like, what is the actual tangible value that you bring. I don't care what the letters are after your name, and I guess maybe that's because my letters don't mean all that much, but at the end of the day, I'm proud of them. I achieved stuff with them. So but again, I think the value of a clinician is their results, not not their not their credential.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 19:16

I know a lot of people that have a lot of degrees after their name, and I wouldn't send my dog to them, so don't So yep, and your energy is fantastic. I'm going to switch gears a little bit. I want to ask you about clean eating, since you're big on that and where, where that buzzword has become such an important factor in performance. But when does it become a detriment?

Unknown: 19:39

When does it become I again. I think the pendulum always swings right. I think there's always a point of diminishing return. When I when I say clean eating, I mean like a multi meal, omnivorous, whole food diet, 80% of the time. Like, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I don't have a protein bar sitting on my desk for in between clients later. That's a processed protein. Teen bar. But I'm also like, Okay, well, I got macros to hit, and these are, I look at these things as tools, but you can't comprise most of your diet of process, ultra processed stuff. And that's really the crux of most a lot of the problems that we face is, like, there's controversy everywhere in nutrition, mostly because people are looking for it. It ain't that complicated, and there's nothing remarkably new in nutrition science. It's kind of been this way for a long time, but people just want to look at whatever angle they can to exploit or sell whatever BS they're trying to pedal this week, right? But you know, again, I tell my clients like, you know you don't have to eat like a bodybuilder or, you know, like immaculately to get great results and to feel a lot better. Let's just fill in the deficits a bit here. Let's hit that protein goal. Let's, you know. And again, it depends what people's goals are, you know. So now that we have a fitness facility as part of our business, it's now we get people that are looking for weight loss, fat loss, that kind of stuff. And a lot of people are struggling with underlying metabolic dysfunction from years of neglect. And, you know, helping them navigate that and just build habits that are sustainable is really what we're trying to do. We're not reinventing the wheel. It's like, Where does this person have the most opportunity for upside improvement, and can we install little micro habits so that they we can change in their day to day that have that huge effect size over time?

Dr. Terry Weyman: 21:31

You know, you know, Mike, when, uh, analogy. I love analogies. And there's analogy that I used to use all the time, and people would come in and they go, why? I've tried this, I've tried that, and I'm listening to it, and I went, well, that's like a thought process 10 years old, 20 years old. And I go, you know, are you riding the same motorcycle? Are you wearing the same protective gear you did 1020 years ago? Because everything's constantly changing, right? Yet, yeah, it seems like everything, equipment wise, changes, mental patterns don't change very fast. Sure. What are some of the your fitness and nutritional patterns that you were a strong advocate 10 years ago, five years ago, that you push, push, push, that you now you step back, go, You know what? That didn't really work as good, and you have a totally different thought process on

Unknown: 22:20

Hmm, that's a really great question. I think probably where I've maybe molded the most clinically has been with my manual therapy practice and how I utilize manual techniques. I think early in my career, I was so highly technical and like, Oh, my God, I have to, like, untangle all these individual fibers for this person. You know what I mean? Like, like, when I went to take a RT, like, it was, like, hook line, sinker, I was in man, you know. And again, that's the double edged sword, right? Part of my personality is that, like, I will go 180% all in on something, and go as far down the rabbit hole as it'll go, like, I'm willing to go down to the you know, but then when you you really dig deep and you start doing your research, go, oh, there's some holes in this. And this doesn't work in every situation. And then as I started backing out of some of these rabbit holes, I started to kind of zoom out a little bit. And you know, one of my mentors, Dr Steven cavibianco, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Dr Steve. He's the medical director for rock tape. He's the founder of rock tape, essentially. I mean, he wrote all of the continuing education. He is the smartest guy nobody's heard of in this field, and you definitely should have him on if you if you get a chance to when he talks about touch and the neurophysiology of touch. And he and rock tape opened my eyes to a new way of looking at manual therapy that, you know, from, like, the biopsychosocial perspective, and, you know, understanding more of maybe the neurosensory side of this, and maybe what we're doing from a tissue level is a little less important than we used to think it was. So I'm not as bullish on hyper specific manual techniques as I once was I still use them, and I'm still a huge advocate for manual therapy, especially in a social media landscape where it seems like every influencer of consequence wants to smash the practice because it doesn't create a permanent change in people. And I'm like, Where the f are we doing that in medicine? Man, I'm like, Did I miss something here? Did statins cure high cholesterol, because I don't think they do right. Or does insulin cure diabetes? Pretty sure it doesn't. So it's like, we do that, we do symptom modification in every other area of medicine, and we call that science, and then when we do it with our hands, we're called quacks. And I'm just like, I don't get that. That makes no sense, you know? So I'm a huge advocate for using touch based therapies, because it's like, a lot of people want to be like, well, what's the efficacy? And NSAID is going to be more effective, Yeah, but look at the downside. You know, you can't look at just upside. You have to consider the side effects, the risks, the consequences of these things. Everything has a price, but touch, what's the price? Time and time. I'm what spent with a patient. Why is that a bad thing? I just think where it goes too far is where it's like, Hey, I'm gonna fix you with my hands. You need me to fix you, and that's where I kind of draw the line. I'm not a fixer. I'm a facilitator. You know, I want to help people feel better and move better, absolutely, but I also want to give them the tools and the autonomy to not need me anymore, and building that as part of our core value has worked really well financially. I think a lot of therapists and clinicians get concerned, if they don't create this necessity, that their businesses are going to suffer. And I'm proof that the opposite is true. We've been thriving in a really difficult economic landscape as a cash pay high premium ticket provider. But again, if you can give results for people, and you can give them an awesome experience with that, there's always a market for quality. You know, there's always will be, and

Dr. Spencer Baron: 25:57

I think now, more than ever before, 100%

Unknown: 26:00

and that's why, I think that's why you're seeing the top 10% of clinicians in all the fields, go private, go cash, and then, you know, and a lot of people get very upset by that, because it's like, we're now not inclusive anymore. But again, it's like all of us, we can't help everybody anyway, even if we wanted to, even if we did our stuff for free, we can't help everybody. So again, it's, it's always trying to balance the two, right? You

Dr. Terry Weyman: 26:30

mentioned rock tape. So I'm just gonna take a second. Spencer knows where I'm going with this. But do you know a guy named Irish Dr Irish Schneider? I do know IRA. Yeah, yeah. So Ira was one of my best friends. He was my my lab partner. Unfortunately, I'm sure you're aware, he passed away last year, and I have the the honor of having the son work for me.

Unknown: 26:53

No way. Yeah, I got to meet Dr Ira twice at two different rock tape events. And I don't have to tell you guys. I mean, that guy was just a absolute joy to be around, and the one of the most humble people like, again, for the amount of experience and knowledge that that man had acquired, like the ultimate, you know, display of humility, which, again, is super admirable.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 27:19

Yeah, I had to give him a shout out, just because I love that man, and MJ and and MJ was a phenomenal he introduced me to her. And so, you know, sorry for taking some time out, but I heard, I heard rock tape. And whenever I see rock tape, I think of IRA, and I get to look at his son every day. So it's kind of awesome. It's really cool. You know, another thing I want to ask is, you know, it's kind of funny, because when I was thinking about this, and this, this avenue, when one of the things that connected me to Dr Spencer was, I don't know, now, it's been, like, 20 years ago, we were at a lecture, and I pulled him aside and I said, I need, I need to meet with you for lunch. And he's like, what for? And I go, I'm feeling burnout, and he would just kind of slammed me. He's like, you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this. And it's what I needed to hear and it and I've always gone back to that, because he was the only one that was honest, and that's one of the reasons I I want him to be my partner on the show. But it all stemmed way back from a question I had, and it was called burnout. I was burning out and and so that is a big deal with athletes, especially when they get injured and they just think, and especially when they have multiple injuries, when they just start coming back, and they get hurt again, and they start coming back to a hurricane and and they start questioning, was I even meant to do this sport? You know, should I try something else? Right? How do you identify and address these issues with your clients to to ensure sustainable performance?

Unknown: 28:55

So, I mean, that's an awesome question, maybe one of the hardest things in and I think you're talking about the art of rehab more than the science of it, right, like being able to and I think that's where the relationship matters more. And this is the part that, as an athletic trainer, that the experience that I got burnt out well, and I left athletic training even though I was making more money and I was working less hours, I was still burnt was still burnt out because I didn't get that feeling right. It was so transactional, the service in the mill, the insurance mill, PT clinic that I was in, and so part of the, one of the allures of being in the trenches with your athletes every day and like, you made mentions, like, Oh, you're like a parent. It's like, yeah, it really is that type of relationship, like you really develop a closeness with these, these athletes, these other humans, and that becomes the basis by which you can have very hard conversations. You know, like these, these kids would come into my office. Like, Mike, can I talk to you for a second and then unload, like, their deepest, darkest stuff? Yeah, you know, it's like, well, I got to put my empathy hat on and be there for this person, right? And listen. So that's kind of where it's like, whoa. We're exposed to, like, a lot of psychotherapy stuff. But again, it's not like, Oh, I'm a psychotherapist and I'm gonna treat that. I I have to be able to, I have to be able to identify it when I see it, though, so that if it is something that's like, Ooh, this is getting towards this place where maybe more intervention, more specific interventions required on, like, the mental health side. But I think to answer your question is like being able to have those deep, deep conversations with people and really pull at what drives them forward, because you're talking about me right now, I was that guy, like the knee was just the first injury. Then I tore the labrum up in my hip. I herniated two discs in my back. I blew out both ankles. I was an absolute train wreck in my collegiate lacrosse career because I was compensating so much I was trying not to get hurt and and it wasn't just the injury, the physical pain was one thing I could deal with that. It was the identity loss. I used to be this all American athlete. I was the guy on my high school team, and now all of a sudden, I'm the guy that's always hurt, like, do I even belong on this field? Should I even be on a d1 roster? Did I make a mistake? Should I have gone d3 instead? Or should I have just not played lacrosse in college? So it's like, all these things naturally swirl in your head, right? Our brains catastrophize immediately. And so that's where I tried to bring my athletes back to the process. It's like there's so many variables in this equation that you can't control, nor can I. So let's control what we have the ability to control and just see where the chips fall. But I can Pro and I usually I can promise you that we go all in regardless of the outcome, you'll feel good in the end, knowing that you went all in. If you switch gears now, we back out, or you give up, you will regret it for the rest of your life. So outcome be damned. What do you like? What's it going to be? Is it going to be regret, or is it going to be? Is it going to be effort? And again, if you could put you but you can't call somebody out and be hard on them like that or like in your situation, right? It's like he was able to do that with you because of the respect. The relationship built on respect, and I think time in the trenches does that for people. It makes people closer. Like I'll have conversations with athletes I worked with 20 years ago, and it's not like I haven't spoken them in forever, and it's like days, like the days never passed, because we spent so much time every day. Yeah,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 32:53

I have to say that this may be the most important aspect of our practice. Yours, Terry mine, and that is that we recognize, especially in chiropractic, that our profession is mental, nutritional and physical, and that's how we geared the crack and Vax podcast towards entertaining. You know, whether it be therapist or psychologist, the physical end, whether it be surgeons or other chiropractors or athletic trainers or physical therapists. And then the nutrition part. Obviously, we've had our fair share of even medical doctors that are now believing nutrition is a viable approach to health. Because, you know, used to be, oh, just eat a good eat a good diet. Well, the diet in America sucks.

Unknown: 33:44

Well, yeah. And what's your definition of good, you know? And again, it's, I think, you know, people like, nobody follows nutritional guidelines, or like, the nutritional guidelines suck. It's like nobody follows them. So how do we know if it sucks or not? But again, that it's always somewhere in the middle.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 34:00

So with that said, you know, it's interesting because I'm preaching to the choir here, but I absolutely believe a doctor is meant to inspire his patient, because they come in sick and injured. What are you going to do? How many times have you heard a patient that comes to you, Mike, or Dr Terry, that says, Oh, I've already been to the medical doctor or the orthopedic surgeon, and they want to do surgery, and everything's so miserable and dismal and all that. And they and they have no empathy whatsoever, but you might have a charisma that allows people to have faith and trust and share their what they need, mentally and emotionally to overcome their injuries. And Dr Terry and I, we've talked many times that we've had patients that come to us that have suicidal ideations. Now that is the epitome of trust in your healthcare provider to come to you and say, hey. Me, I'm not I'm not doing well and and the the athlete, the student athlete, is probably the, the most vulnerable to that, because the regular student, what do they call them? The narps. The narps, not athletic. What is it? Not

Unknown: 35:16

athletic? Regular people, they

Dr. Spencer Baron: 35:20

have a name for them.

Unknown: 35:21

I'm a narc. Now, it's like,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 35:27

but in the reality is these, these athletes, these student athletes, have so much to rise for and to be responsible for. So anyway, with that said, you know, you know, here we can take a significant mental toll, you know. And so, how do you support, how do you support an athlete? How do you come? How do you do you identify certain inflections or, you know, or affects that allow you to go? How you doing? Are you okay? That kind of thing? Yeah. I

Unknown: 36:04

mean, yeah, I think picking up social cues is a dying art man. Honestly, it's probably one of the things my interns now struggle with the most. It's not the information so much. It's the implementation and the integration of that with people. And again, that's my huge gripe, too. On on social media with all these talking heads that flash research papers, it's like, that's awesome. I love research. It's cool, man. But like, your person in front of you, ain't a paper. They're a human being. You know? They're, they're not a data point, right? They're, they're a real person with real problems and and lots of variables in their equation, and right? How do you unpack any of that stuff? Gotta get to know them, and we and the more you get to know somebody, and the more that there's that trust that that's built, and if you can add a layer of credibility to that trust, right? So not only am I, you know again, I I'm just and the the funny part for me is my success on social media came to I stopped giving a fuck, and I just started posting, like, what you watch on my Instagram now is just my videographer filming me do my thing with my athletes and my clients, and that's it. It's not scripted. It's not it's usually just like, here's what I'm doing right now. This is why I'm doing it. And it's we've been had success with that, and people have been gravitated towards the content, mostly for like, the manual therapy techniques and the movement stuff. But I think what people don't see there is like, that person on the table is a friend, they're not a client, they're not a number, somebody that we actually, genuinely care about. And because of that, we're able to pull the excellence out of everyone because you have, because you have to have that. I have to be able to be hard on you when you need to hear that, and I also need to be able to listen when I need to listen. I have to be able to advise you and direct you when you just need guidance, right? And so that relationship doesn't there's no textbook, there's no research paper, there's no information I can share with somebody. And like people, like all the biopsychosocial model, it's like, yeah, you say that, but the words are easy, like actual empathy is the time that you're not spending with people, right? And so again, I spend a lot of people, a lot of time with people up front, and I give them as much access to me and my team as they need. And our goal is just to give them a great experience. And my vision for the movement underground was always like physical therapy and training meets a barber shop or a bar, right? It's like, it's like cheers, like everybody knows your name, come on in. It's like, it's not this sterile, stuffy beige walls with the sailboat in the background that says motivation. You know, it's like that classic avatar, yeah, yeah, it's that classic avatar of a doctor's clinic. And so even when you come to my facility, you walk through the doors and it's this big, bright, bold gym with these huge overhead hex neon lights. And, you know, people go, Oh, this is therapy. And again, I'm trying to change their perspective or their perception, or their expectation of what care should be, right from the beginning, from the way it looks to the way it smells, to the way we organize it, to the way I do my marketing and our interactions with new people as they come through. It's we're trying to make everybody feel like a VIP, like they are a pro athlete, like they're someone deserving of expert care. Most people don't think they deserve it, which is a crime. It's a fucking crime because the health is the only thing you got without that. Everything else is pointless.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 39:39

Hey, Mike, you said something, and this is off script totally, but you said something, and it kind of, I got my brain thinking athletes growing up, we don't like to fail. We'd like because we're experts, right? And we have to succeed. And so do you think sometimes, whether, when. You switch the we haven't progressed so much in our as doctors, therapists, trainers, PTs, we haven't progressed so much because we learn more from failure than we do from success. But we're afraid to fail, because, as athletes, failure puts you on the bench. Do you think that a lot of these doctors don't try or therapists don't try new approaches, because if they're afraid, if it doesn't work, it's a sign of failure.

Unknown: 40:25

I think that's a huge part of it. I think a lot of people are afraid to color outside the lines now for fear of being ridiculed or stitched on Instagram and made fun of by, you know, some popular influencer, because that seems to be the type of content now that gets legs and goes. It's like if I could just take somebody else's content and just rip them apart. And that's definitely going to be and to me, that is the lowest form of content creation. I would much rather have conversations like this. And, you know, little bit of nuance in there. And, you know, again, there's a time and a place for everything. Like we don't you watch that 32nd Instagram clip, you don't know all this, all the context there. So it's like, how can you judge, right? But again, I digress. I think part of it is the fear of being ridiculed, and there's comfort in staying in the box or being in or, I guess you guys, I'm sure you guys have noticed all the little camps right within the rehab and treatment and Cairo and rehab world, and everybody likes the the camp, right? You know? Because once you're in that camp, you get the security of the people in that camp, right? And then you get to be like, Yeah, fuck you other camp, right? And, but you get the security of your camp. And I've always been the guy that's like, Yo, what are you guys doing, you know? What are you guys doing over there? Oh, that's cool. And I can see the value in everything, you know, and I'm I'll take the bits that I like and install them and the other stuff I don't like and say, Okay, I don't really need that. I'll use it for something else. And I just think, you know, I've always kind of adopted that Bruce Lee method, where I'll take what I like and adopt it, and what I don't see the value in, I'll let it go and try to see the value in everything for what it is, and look for the time and the place to use that tool. And I just think a lot of providers, especially early in their careers, they just want to be accepted. And again, if you think of like these huge models, right, the APTA, the NATA, the chiropractic, you know, governing bodies, right? There's comfort in staying in the box, because there's a lot of people in the box with you, and as soon as you go a little rogue, you're the first one to be ridiculed, the first one to be, you know, pointed out, right? And that's uncomfortable. And I guess for me, because I was coming from such like a shit place. I was like, what does it matter? It's like, tear me down. I'm already at the bottom right. I got no, I got nowhere to go but up So, and that's worked well for me. So I think that helped me get gather some confidence, and then the more content I put out, even though my ideas maybe were a little fringe, or I don't even think they're that fringe, honestly, I think they're very middle of the road. But apparently I'm fringe in some respects, and and then what I've noticed is a lot of people are like, that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that. Like most people are awesome and curious, just like I was. They're just like I am. And the small amounts of people who are assholes are just assholes,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 43:20

you know, I'm like, I gotta, I gotta tell you, you brought up a good point. You know, just playing on the concept of empathy. And, you know, even going into the gym nowadays, everybody's got their headsets on or their headphones, and nobody talks to anybody but back. And I've been doing this for so long, back 30 years ago to even 20 years ago, you know, you had one source of music, and everybody made fun of everybody, whether that you couldn't lift the weight or you you didn't show up one day. And that is the camaraderie that is missing this, this in this era where you where a practitioner needs to have empathy like and your energy and charisma. You know it reminds me my my former boss at Miami Dolphins, Kevin O'Neill, head athletic trainer, who had been a rock star in that world, he used to say, often, they about the patient or the the athlete. They don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care Absolutely. And I thought that was an absolutely brilliant because it's true. And Mike, you could learn 10,000 things. I mean, I, you know, dr, Terry and I, we've acquired, like tons of tools in our toolkit, but it's our character that allows the patient to listen and want to learn from you, or want to be healed from you, or they want to get better because you're the coolest, you know. So, you know, I appreciate bringing that up, but that's what patients today should look for in their doctor, because back, think about back in the day when our parents. Parents or a great or a grandparents, or whatever, the doctor was the god and whatever he said goes, and he didn't have any empathy, he would just write that script and hand it.

Unknown: 45:11

But there also was a time where your doctor would show up to your house, right? But that was even further back, yeah, yeah, like, but at that era, that was medicine, right? That was, that wasn't just your doctor. That was your friend in the community, correct? That was somebody that you knew, and so, and what you're starting to see, and this is my prediction for the for the the world of AI, that we're all on the precipice of this roller coaster that we don't know how deep, how far this thing's gonna go down, right? But I have a feeling these community based the community based clinic, the community based gym, and that's the thing I'm most proud of, is the community here. It's like, yeah, people come in as patients, but they stay for the community. They come in for a fix or an answer to their problem, but they stay for the community, and that now they're training. And exactly what you just said, Dr Spencer, it's exactly what my everyday is. I'm gonna walk out of my office after we're done recording, and there's gonna be six people in that gym training, smiling, with no headphones on, no cell phones, working with a coach, and they're gonna go get better, and they're gonna have a good time. And it's just an hour of the day where we get to connect, talk about the stuff that's going on in the world, and just being around people that live in our community, these are, you know, and I can't tell you how many of these people have helped me in immense ways, my lawyer, my accountant, my realtor, all of these people are people that I've helped with injuries, and then I've been like, what can I do for you? It's like the ultimate life hack is to be the guy that can help other people with their pain and in beyond the money like the way that that can reward you in other ways is just awesome. Man, it's my favorite part.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 46:49

Mike, can you make some comment about the world of toxic positivity, overtraining and misleading influencer advice that we are that this world is rife with now. I mean, you know, we're we all have some presence on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, wherever, you know all the what do you how do you feel about that landscape?

Unknown: 47:15

Um, mixed, because social media changed my life. I wouldn't be talking to you guys right now if it wasn't for social media. Like, rock tape found me on YouTube. That's how I got introduced to rock tape, that I was a fan of their product and their courses because I was just a Con Ed junkie in my 20s. Like, I took everything. There was a course and I could afford it. I had enough money in my bank account to cover that and something to eat later I was in, you know, what I mean, like, that's how I kind of operated in my 20s. So, you know, I try to be as authentic as I can be, but I also don't show everything. I show my professional life, you know, I kind of keep my personal life close to the chest. I share glimpses of that because I, you know, I like to be real and authentic and for people to see, you know, the man behind the mask. But what I would say, for most people, when you're looking at social media, just remember, you're looking at somebody's ambassador. You know, you're looking at their ambassador, not them. Everybody's got vices, everybody's got their their shit, right? Their struggles in life, the things they don't do well, they're things they can't cope with. You know, we all go through seasons, man, you know. And I, you know, I love the show Game of Thrones. I was a huge Game of Thrones fan. I am, like fantasy, like, I'm not an, I'm not a fiction guy, but if I any kind of fiction I do indulge in, it's like that kind of stuff, you know, the, you know, Hero slays, the dragon saves the princess, love, that, that kind of folklore stuff. But so for me, it was, I forgot where I was really going with that. I kind of completely lost my train of thought. It was gonna go somewhere cool, though. Come back all the influencers, right? Yeah, um, you know, people are showing you what they want to show you. Just remember that, you know, these are but it's an incredible tool to connect with people. And I think I've met more unbelievable humans through social media, yeah, because I found people who are also passionate about what I'm passionate about. So how do you not become friendly with those people? And you know, again, I think you know, here's where I was going, is Winter is coming, right? Here's our everybody's got winter coming. Winter is coming. If your life has been great, winter is coming. Yeah, for all of us now, I went through winter early in my life. I lost both my parents, I lost my grandparents who raised me. I was taken advantage of. I was fucked over in immense ways, and I always had. I always just struggled, you know, to to make it, to get by, because I had nobody to lean on. I was just kind of doing it on my own. And so for me, that that changed my perspective is like I am now, the guy I needed 25 years ago. Wow, that's who I am now. And so I get to be that lifeline for these people. Wow, and that has helped me heal that wound. You know what I mean? So social media is just, it's a vehicle. That's it. It's a car. It's a way to get you where you're going. It's a way to put your message out there. And I encourage everybody to do it, put yourself out there, interact with people, like when you like something, or you appreciate, wow. That was really that made me think, like, comment on it, like, those little things for a small business owner, for somebody trying to break through the noise and compete with, like, the giant PT mega corpse, right? Like, those are the little things that make a huge difference. But that's the best part, is we all have the same chance of going viral, or, you know, you know, you know, making that connection or getting on that podcast, and it's cool. It's really, really cool.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 50:46

You know, Mike, before we go into our favorite aspect of the show, I do have to ask you one question, and kind of going back to the very first topic, about the conveyor belt thing. You know, we have an industry that prioritizes volume over individualized care, sure, how have you meant? How have you maintained sustainability by reversing that?

Unknown: 51:09

I love that question. That's the thing I'm most proud of with my business is that we've found a way to reconcile the business model with the clinical model. You know, we kind of take a less is more approach, and what I call the hybridized approach. So we give our clients every day in online coaching, they have an app. I'm literally we're designing everything from their mobility, their fitness, their nutrition, their you know, even some stress management stuff, breathing techniques, like we really try to help provide a path that they can follow where and take away a lot of the guesswork for them, right? And again, I'm not saying here's exactly everything you have to do. It's, it's concept driven. So how do we install this in your life in a way that's doable for you and sustainable for you? And then we have that really deep one on one model, which, yeah, it does cost money. It isn't, you know, but the way that I always frame it is this, if you went to use you went to PT for rehab and use your insurance, and realistically, if you're lucky, you get to spend 10 minutes with your therapist before you're off to an aide, or maybe no supervision at all, to do your exercises. So if you came to see me for an hour, and I got to work with you one on one for an hour in one session, I've spent more time with you than you've spent in two weeks at traditional PT, yeah, so where is so what do you value more the money in your pocket or your time, like what's worth more to you, or the experience or the result that you're going to get? Or are you confident that that aid has the compartmentalized knowledge to progress you in the way that you need. No. So when I start framing this to people as, hey, let's kind of shift that, that focus away from cost, and start talking about value and and again, this is where I have to ask them and figure out what they value. And most of the time, people like, yeah, I would rather pay more and have a better yeah. Okay, well, I Here you go. And again, I don't force it on anybody. Like, thank God. We're blessed in a position from a business perspective, where I don't have to, like, no one person's moving the needle that much anymore, right? It's not like when I was when I started, but that gives me the ability to be a little choosy. It gives me the ability to but also, like, not push people, just provide them the value, provide them the information, and let them make a decision. Here's my stuff. I'm going to give you my best stuff for like, free or very cheap, and here's my package. This is what it would cost to work with me and my team. And does that work for you? And then we just go from there

Dr. Spencer Baron: 53:42

right out. I think that's and that's how boutique medicine is becoming. You know, super relevant. No, I love that night. And I always tell my interns, I go, it's so easy to be a great doctor or healthcare provider. And they look at me like, how is that possible? I go, because everybody out there sucks at what they did, the average amount of time an insurance based practice can spend with you is seven minutes. That's the national average, and that's published.

Unknown: 54:14

Man, yeah. How do you eat in seven minutes? You know what I mean? Like, how do you figure out what's wrong with I sit on the toilet longer than that? That's crazy. That's crazy. Man.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 54:29

I think there's one thing I can do and under seven minutes, not very happy. But you know, at least, you know, at least one minute, it comes with it. Yeah,

Unknown: 54:39

is that bonus time,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 54:43

because I try to round up to an even number, which is six, I

Dr. Spencer Baron: 54:52

think it's time to go to our rapid fire questions on that note, and you better not let Michelle listen to this. Oh, she would

Dr. Terry Weyman: 55:02

be excited that I gave her six minutes.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 55:05

Oh, man, all right, she's excited. Yeah, sure in my head, Hey, Mike, we enter the phase of our wrap up with one of our favorite parts of our episodes, and it's the rapid fire questions. You're obviously quick on your feet. We look forward to seeing your answers, and we always get hung up on talking about it. So anyway, here we go. We got five of them. You ready for number one? Let's go. All right. What is one daily habit or routine that you swear to keep your mind and body in peak condition?

Unknown: 55:47

Gratitude?

Dr. Spencer Baron: 55:49

Oh, I didn't expect that. Very good

Unknown: 55:52

death by comparison, man, people nice. A lot of the misery people face in their health and their fitness is because they're comparing themselves against a model that doesn't work or a person that isn't them, you know, so I, and this is the part of like, the evolution for me as an athlete, I'm not competing with other people anymore. I'm just competing with myself, as long as I could be a little better tomorrow. I'm not the perfect physique. There are things in my health that can improve, but I'm actively working on those things. I'm controlling what I can control, but I'm really grateful to be where I'm at now and from where I came from to where I'm at now. It's like, whenever I'm stressed out and struggling with stuff, I'm just like, I've already achieved things that I told myself years ago would make me happy, right? I've already achieved those things. So what am I complaining about?

Dr. Spencer Baron: 56:45

Good for you. Man, that's important. Great to hear. Thank you. Question number two, can you share a personal interest or hobby outside of athletic training that people might be surprised to learn about you?

Unknown: 56:59

I love I'm really into fishing and like boats, like water sports, like jet skis and boats, and like tinkering on motors and making mechanical, mechanical things work. That's kind of become a recent thing, but I'm fortunate again. I live on Long Island in New York, which a lot of people don't realize is an island like an actual island. So we have an ocean here and beaches. And I live on my house got like a little canal that runs through it, kind of like Venice, like in my backyard. So I keep a little boat back there and a couple of jet skis that I wrench on. And you know, that's what I do when I decompress, is I get out on my boat. I go fishing. We go to the beach, go clamming. Just enjoy being outside and unplugged. Clamming. Is that what you said? You go clamming, yeah, oh, yeah. So low tide, we pull the boat up on the beach, yeah, we find that little spot in the inlet, and we start digging in the sand for clams, and take them home and make some linguini and clam sauce.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 57:56

I knew that was coming.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 57:59

Hey, I do have to do you seem like the guy that would do this? Have you ever tried that those, whether they call them flight boots or or flight boards that you hook to the jet ski and that you Oh,

Unknown: 58:10

no, I've never tried that. No, I've done a lot of other crazy stuff, like, you know, water skiing and that kind of stuff.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 58:16

But water ski is that crazy, but those flight boards, that's pretty cool. Yeah. All right. Sorry. Question number three,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 58:25

all right, Mike, what's a single tip or piece of advice that you've received that significantly changed your approach to health or life?

Unknown: 58:34

Run your race. Run your race. You know you gotta if you're running a marathon and you're focused on the person in front of you, you're focused on the wrong person. You have to play your cards and do the best you can with what you got. I think, again, that kind of builds off the other thing, but for me, it was like being patient and letting that happen. I think early in my career, I was so upset. I think a lot of the skill acquisition phase that I went through was my misunderstanding of, like, how my career would evolve. I just thought like, if I could just be more competent now and more skilled now, then I can have the things that those skilled people that put 20 or 30 years in have. And that's not how that works, and it made me very competent very early in my career, which is awesome, but that also led to a lot of social issues and strife, like in workplaces and stuff where I rub people the wrong way, or, you know, they they felt intimidated by by me, and so that held me back in a lot of ways professionally, because I wasn't willing to play the game with people, and I didn't value the social aspect of a profession early enough, because I was just like, skills are all that matters, right? So as an athlete, it's like, results are all that matters. Okay? I don't have the nicest equipment, I don't have the best stick, I don't have new cleats. I had to walk to practice today when all my friends got dropped off in their moms Escalade. You know? I didn't eat. Because my mom, we were broke, we didn't have any you know, I didn't get to eat today, so, but I just went out there and played my balls off and and just wrecked people on the field. And the results were, at that time, were the thing that helped you elevate yourself. So I was like, I just gonna apply that to the rest of my life. But it doesn't work. You have to be patient. You have to build the relationships, you know, and those things generally, will carry you farther.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:00:25

What a great guy you are. All right. Question number four, is there a particular book, movie or experience that has profoundly inspired you or made you feel or reflect deeply on life?

Unknown: 1:00:40

Oh, man, so many books come to mind. One of my favorites that I think at a time in a season of change for me, was Sapiens, by Noel Harari, have you guys seen that book? It's kind of like the chronicling of of human existence, and it really narrates early like the struggles of early man. And I think what it made me reflect on is like I can sit in my house naked and press a button on a screen and then a next day, the thing I needed is delivered at my door like that, the convenience, like we live in a time where, as far as human existence goes, this is the golden age of humanity. Like, we don't have the struggles, like, we don't have, like, I'm not leaving my cave going, like, Okay, what's gonna eat me today, you know, like, so a lot of the problems that we have are just like, first, like, they're good problems to have. You know, we're the wealthiest, you know, human, like, group of humans ever, yeah, you know. And so I just try to look at like, all the good things that we have. You know, again, there's plenty of shit to complain about, absolutely. And I think that's part of the struggle of man. Is like we we just compare ourselves constantly to what we have now, what we want in the future, and it's all of this resource gathering, but it's like you're already living better than the richest person 100 years ago. Like, think about, like hot showers is a thing of, like, the last 60 years. Like, you got to take a hot shower today. 100 years ago, they didn't do that, right? Like, it's not that long ago. So it's just like, be grateful people. It's like life is good. You drove to work in your car. You're gonna go home to food like focus on what matters, your health, your family, your community, your people. Those are the things that matter, not everything you know, not all the other shit. Love it, stuff like that.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:02:37

Last question, Mike, question number five. Let's go five. When you think about your legacy, that something that you want to leave behind, what comes to mind is your most important contribution, or, you know, impact,

Unknown: 1:02:53

that's a great question too. That's something I've pondered a lot lately, like, what's next? You know? I guess for me, it was always and again, this has changed, because there was many years where I was very disheartened with the athletic training profession. I regretted it. I was like, I made a mistake, like, I'm never going to be able to buy a house or live the life I want to live. So and then as the years went on, and like, you know, things have kind of worked out. And now I'm in this position where a lot of other athletic trainers, like, look up to me and admire me. Or, Hey, you're the reason I started my business. You're the reason I advocated for myself and I got my raise, you're the reason I took that course. It's like, what do I want? I just want to leave it better than I found it. Like, actually leave it better than I found it right like, I think a lot of people say that, and then they just tote the line like, No, I want to change this thing, and I don't know how exactly, but right now, the movement underground is my attempt to take a model that I look at as broken and ineffective and replace it with something better. Is that? Is it going to be the thing that takes over, probably not, but at least in my little ecosystem, this is the future of healthcare, in my opinion.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:04:09

Well, it seems to be in a lot of people's opinions, and you are going to be extraordinarily successful because of this. You've already got a jump start on this whole process that we're starting to see change at a rapid pace that we never thought would happen. And Mike, thank you so much for being on our program.

Unknown: 1:04:29

Thank you guys. I really, really appreciate it was awesome spending some time.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 1:04:33

Thank you, bud. This is great.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:04:37

Thank you for listening to today's episode of The cracking backs podcast, we hope you enjoyed it. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at crack and backs podcast, catch new episodes every Monday. See you next time you.