What happens when Chronic Pain steals your Identity? Jefferey Bone PsyD

Most people think chronic illness is only about pain.

But what if the real battle is losing your identity, your purpose, and the life you thought you were going to live?

In this episode of the Crackin’ Backs Podcast, we sit down with psychologist Jeffrey Bone Psy.D for one of the most honest conversations we’ve ever had about the emotional and psychological reality of living with chronic illness and chronic pain.

This isn’t another “just stay positive” discussion.

It’s about what happens when:

• Your symptoms don’t go away 
• Your labs say “normal” 
• Your relationships change 
• And you no longer recognize yourself 

In This Episode, We Explore:

• The hidden mental health crisis behind chronic illness and chronic pain 
• Why so many patients feel dismissed, unseen, or misunderstood 
• How chronic illness can strip away identity, confidence, and purpose 
• The truth about “learned helplessness” and why some people struggle to move forward 
• How to rebuild meaning and emotional resilience when symptoms remain unpredictable 
• Where mindset work helps—and where it becomes harmful or dismissive 
• Practical ways to regain a sense of control over your life again 

If you’ve ever searched:

• “How to cope with chronic illness” 
• “Chronic pain and mental health” 
• “Why do I feel lost after illness?” 
• “How to find purpose with chronic pain” 

This episode will help you feel seen—and understood.

About Jeffrey Bone

Jeffrey Bone Pys.D is a psychologist whose work focuses on helping individuals navigate the emotional, behavioral, and identity challenges that come with chronic illness, chronic pain, and long-term suffering.

His approach blends:

• Psychology and behavioral science 
• Meaning-centered therapy 
• Emotional resilience strategies 
• Identity reconstruction after trauma or illness 

Dr. Bone is known for helping patients move beyond simply “managing symptoms” and toward rebuilding a life that still holds purpose, connection, and meaning.

Learn More About Dr. Jeffrey Bone

🔗 Website:
 Jeffrey Bone PsyD Official Website

We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.

 Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Transcript

Dr. Spencer Baron (00:01.771)
Most people think chronic illness is about pain. But what if the real battle isn't in the body? It's in the loss of identity, purpose, and meaning. Today we're sitting down with a psychologist who doesn't just treat symptoms. He helps people answer one of the hardest questions imaginable. How do you build a life worth living when the pain just never leaves? Welcome to the show, Dr. Jeffrey Bohn.

Jeffrey Bone (00:25.688)
Well, thank you very much for having me today. I appreciate it.

Dr. Spencer Baron (00:32.205)
I'll tell you that one question, we are going to feed on like piranhas. right? So let me.

Jeffrey Bone (00:33.864)
by all means, by all means. And what's beautiful about it is that there just isn't one perfect smooth answer. It's it goes into all kinds of different directions. So

Dr Terry (00:36.767)
You

Dr. Spencer Baron (00:49.165)
That's good. want to start when someone realizes their condition isn't going away. What breaks first? Is it the body or the identity? I mean, we know that there's that psychological overlay that comes with injury and so on. We can start there.

Jeffrey Bone (01:05.197)
I think the body will break first because the mind knows what's familiar. That's the good and the bad sometimes the brain will just recycle a lot of information. So generally speaking, you have about 70,000 thoughts a day, and about 80 % of them are just recycled from yesterday. And so you get into this recycling habit of just what the brain knows. So even though that you're in a chronic phase, and you've been given this diagnosis,

you just want to replay yesterday. And with that diminished capacity, it just leads to burnout, at least a frustration, it leads to hopeless, helpless and feeling like a failure. But the mind will replay yesterday until you tell it to stop. And even then, you're have to tell it to stop a few times.

Dr. Spencer Baron (01:57.197)
70,000 thoughts, huh? I'll tell you, I feel like there's twice as many that run through my head during the day, it can get, it can get it.

Jeffrey Bone (01:58.028)
Yeah.

Jeffrey Bone (02:03.41)
I hear you can hang another zero on mine. It's it just doesn't stop. It doesn't stop. A lot of people. If you look it up, if you Google how many people don't have an internal monologue, there's a lot of people out in the world that do not have an internal monologue, which is extremely strange.

there isn't this ongoing conversation of, you know, back and forth of having, you know, your sense of self, and you're just reacting to the world, you just engage in conversation, you just go, but there just isn't that same internal monologue. And it's mind blowing. But it's also a consideration to when you're dealing with people that just, it just doesn't seem to fit like the conversation just doesn't work. We know what's going on.

Dr. Spencer Baron (02:27.02)
Explain that. Explain that. I'm curious about this.

Jeffrey Bone (02:55.008)
one of those questions that we should always ask ourselves, does this person have an internal monologue? A lot of people don't.

Dr. Spencer Baron (03:05.036)
Okay, wait, this is interesting now. When you say internal monologue, is that a good thing or a bad thing in a sense that we understand that some people don't understand consequences, so they do a bad thing and they just don't get it. Is that what you're talking about?

Jeffrey Bone (03:09.941)
I...

Jeffrey Bone (03:16.364)
Yes. Yes. I think it is the poisons in the dose. If you kind of push it too far, you kind of can push yourself into neuroticism becoming very rigid or OCD, or you're just thinking too much. I don't know if you've ever kind of driven a car when you're really sick. But when you're driving a car when you're sick and your body's aching, it's almost like you have to pay attention to it more.

And have to be kind of you're like overly aware. So I was just driving home just a few minutes ago. And I'm not paying attention to where I am in my lane. I just know it by feel because my brain's done it so many times. It's like we can I can drive up to my driveway. How did I get here? Like I haven't been paying attention for the past five minutes. And then you know, the brain will kind of do it automatically. And so we don't want too much of an internal monologue.

But we also don't want too little self-reflection. And when there's no self-reflection, then there's less levers to pull in terms of navigating existence. And I've definitely kind of met people where I've suspected, you know, there may be a lack of an internal monologue here.

Dr. Spencer Baron (04:33.772)
I love this stuff. This is fascinating. mean, I don't know how many patients that Dr. Terry and I have had over the many, many years that...

We do everything possible to help them get rid of this injury or pain. And it's not even that complicated, but they hang on to this identity of pain. how often is that something that might look normal to some people or not even know it, but they're suffering daily? What's your perspective on that?

Jeffrey Bone (04:53.25)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (05:05.057)
I think it organizes the chaos around them and then they're afraid to let go. And the world sometimes doesn't have this inherent meaning attached to it. And they're looking for these structures. They're looking for these things that they can, you you have this raging river of life that's just moving along and sometimes it doesn't make sense, especially when you get knocked off of it with an injury or an illness and people kind of grasp on to

Well, no, I can't get better. have degenerative disc disease. You know, I have this disease and it's kind of like, or I have a bulge disc and it's kind of like, I can't you know, that's the reason why or whatever it is, they're organizing their, perception, their lens of reality through that diagnosis. And they kind of no C blow themselves all the time.

And you may know whether no C blow is but for anyone listening is basically when you think something bad is going to happen that I am going to be ill or sick from this thing when it's really inert, it's really benign and it's not going to cause you any pain. I I've had degenerative disc disease since I was 25 when I fell off a mountain bike and they're like, this is really advanced and this is

It's just the grain of the disk. It's just the aging process. It doesn't mean that you're going to have pain. It doesn't mean that you're ill or broken or it's going to impact your activities of daily living. But if you see yourself through that lens, well, then that becomes your reality.

Dr Terry (06:47.807)
Hey, Doc, I was going ask this later on the question, but you're leading it right down there. I was reading something this morning and I this term called a state of learned helplessness. And I had never heard that term before. And I loved it. I was like, there's a lot of people who don't want to heal, and that is their identity. And so they're in this state of learned helplessness. And they're comfortable in that state.

Jeffrey Bone (06:58.411)
Yes.

Dr Terry (07:17.951)
but that's where they get their feedback from everywhere else. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Jeffrey Bone (07:20.52)
Yes. Well, the best that I can remember if I go back to graduate school, they did an experiment back when you could kind of torture animals a little bit more. And I think it was like the 1950s or so. And basically, they have an animal in a cage, and they just shock the floor over and over and over and over until that animal just gives up and just takes the shocks. And then that's that learned helplessness. Now the next day, the following day, they

do the exact same thing, but they open up the door. They have the ability that animal now is the ability to escape. They're shocking the floor, but it doesn't even try. It doesn't even try. And so then you want to then contrast that with the study and you may have heard it where they put a rat in water and they see how long it can swim for. Have you Are you familiar with that?

Yeah. And so for the listener, it's they they put the rat in water, they want to see how long it can go. And they it's about 15 minutes until it begins to drown. But if you take the ride out, dry it off, you let it rest and give it some food, throw it back in the water, the rat will continue to swim for about 60 hours. And basically until like the muscles, you know, begin to kind of fall apart on them and degrade.

Dr Terry (08:17.981)
Yeah, I've heard that one. Yeah, yep, yep.

Jeffrey Bone (08:43.601)
and where they've used all of their, all the resources physically. And the issue is hope because they're hoping for that hand to come back and pull them out of the water. So those are the two ends of the spectrum of that learned helplessness of it doesn't matter what I do versus this sense of having hope of like, I'm going to keep on trying because I believe that the hand will come in, the opportunity will arise.

where I will get better.

Dr Terry (09:18.623)
So on that note, dealing with chronic pain, I started asking people that come in, I look at stuff and I go, you're not really doing what we're I'm sure Spencer has the same thing, and you're not really, and I finally just ask them, do you even want to heal?

Dr. Spencer Baron (09:20.556)
Peace.

Dr Terry (09:36.295)
And it's amazing some of the responses I've been getting. So you dealing on the mind side, have you ever asked if people want to heal or if they're comfortable in this state of helplessness?

Jeffrey Bone (09:47.266)
Yes, absolutely. It's like, what do you lose if you do heal? Because you we always think it's like, you're gonna get your job back, you're going to be able to be with your spouse intimately, you're going to be able to, you know, take walks again and do x, y, and z. And so the question is, do you lose anything if you do heal? And, and so that's the story.

And we all exist in the sense of stories. And, and the thing is, the person may or may not even necessarily be aware. It's not as though that they're this intentional man linger that they don't want to. And sometimes they just get into that rut of thinking a particular way, a rut of being familiar with this identity. And they're not in the word the pride and the crowbar here is curious.

you need to be curious to break the pattern of wherever you are in that story. Because you're not if you're not curious for it, you're not going to break the pattern.

Dr. Spencer Baron (10:58.028)
Wait, isn't there like a, I don't know, almost a magic question to ask somebody is what would you do, and I've done this with patients over the past 40 years, what would you do if you were out of pain?

Jeffrey Bone (11:09.804)
Yes.

Dr. Spencer Baron (11:12.588)
And the answer could be one of two things and that will lead you down the path of where they're at. That is, oh, I just want to get out of the pain. It's been chronic. It's I don't know what to do with myself. I was told to have arthritis and you're thinking, well, you know, 97 % of arthritis, arthritic conditions are reversible, you know, that kind of thing. and then or they'll say, you know, I'll be able to lift my kid up. I'll be able to go for a run. I'll be able to do that would be the alternate answer. Where do you go with those two?

Jeffrey Bone (11:28.897)
Yes, yes.

Jeffrey Bone (11:40.918)
Well, the thing is, when I would ask it, it's like I would want them to be able because everyone's like, I want to get out of pain. It's like, know, like, like, you know, the thing the mousetrap is on my finger, I want the mousetrap off this hurts out. And so there's that physiological aspect. But then there's that story aspect, which is, tell me what your day would be like five years from now from getting out of bed throughout the course of the entire day.

Dr. Spencer Baron (11:42.645)
answers.

Jeffrey Bone (12:10.717)
of just, you know, do you use the restroom? Do you make the breakfast? Do you do this? Where do you go? Where are you driving? Who are you seeing? What? What are the challenges? What? What's this? How do you play? How do you do this? How do you come home? How do you relax? And it gives that richness to it, which is not just escaping that pain, but it's giving you then a destination. Because

It's one of those things and it's it's and I'm not a big woo woo person but I am I am humble to the woo. And so it and what it is is I see 1111 all the time. And the more I talk about seeing 1111, I see it is like, Oh, there it is again. And there it is again. And the thing is, and what we don't pay attention to is that the body is

Dr. Spencer Baron (12:47.246)
You

Dr Terry (12:47.263)
you

Jeffrey Bone (13:02.835)
inundated with information all the time, millions of bits of information. It's like, were not aware of your foot on the floor until I said you're aware of your foot on the floor. Your brain was always aware, but now you're consciously aware of it. That information was always there, but you didn't dip into it. And so you have to have this story that you are moving towards that you're telling your brain, I want to seek this out.

This is the adventure that I want to go on. This is the life that I want. I want you to prioritize this so that you are going to take me to this place. I want to and this is not about just manifesting. This is not manifesting. This is having intentions. This is I am looking to I want to make a hundred thousand dollars. It's like, that sounds like but you're to have to do a lot of work to get there.

but all of your intentions and all of the steps are going to kind of align with that. If you have a story of this is the way it's going to be. And then you have that confirmation bias of the brain. That's like the fancy term is that your brain is going to confirm that story that you're telling it. And it's going to look forward those things. Does that make sense?

Dr. Spencer Baron (14:25.959)
yeah, yeah. Now let me ask you, because I think it was absolutely the coolest suggestion you made about asking a patient detailed to what their life is going to be like a year or five years from now if they didn't have any pain. Is that for you, the practitioner, or is that for the patient? I mean, does that give you a guideline about them, or is that for the patient? OK.

Jeffrey Bone (14:33.676)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (14:47.201)
It's a hundred percent for them. A hundred percent. It does not matter at all whatsoever to me of what it is. It's not used in terms of diagnostically whatsoever or, you know, I'm going to whatever it may be. It is that they are thinking past because we have the ability to engage in mental time travel. It's basically what teenagers can't do. So teenagers will get on the top of a hill.

with a grocery cart and go, huh, let's see what happens. And they'll go down the hill like Johnny Knoxville and the 40 year old or me 50 year old goes F that like, I don't want to see my physical therapist, you know, for the next three months. I'm not getting in that shopping cart. We can do that mental time travel of the consequences of what that is and what that looks like. Yeah, I think most people have driven down the road and gone, I wonder what would happen if I just drove off the road.

Dr. Spencer Baron (15:33.599)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Jeffrey Bone (15:45.967)
It's kind of like a normal thing. Or you go to the hotel is five, 10 stories up and you're at the edge and like, Oh, what would happen if I jumped off? It a lot of people and they get scared because they think, Oh, I'm going to, I'm suicidal. No, your brain is just has, has the ability to go. Well, if you drive off the side of the road, you'll do a lot of damage. You may go to the ER, you could break bones and then your insurance premiums are going to go up and then you're going to have to get a worse car and then this and this and this. And if you fall off, you know, you,

maybe you die, maybe you don't, this is this and this. And it tells you this story of this mental time travel. that is a beautiful, people get afraid of it because it's like, like why did I think about this? Or I could suffocate the baby. And it's like, if you can't think, if I put the baby down like this and you know, I could suffocate the baby, you'll only learn from experience. But the brain has that mental time travel of going like, I can think of other possibilities.

So we have to give ourselves the mental possibility of healing. to do people give themselves the mental possibility of healing or do they just stick with the familiar brain pattern of what they know? I know what it's like to be sick. And so I, know, and if you just sit it back, that default mode network of the brain is when you're not taking manual control of the brain, it's just going to repeat, repeat, and you'll just get the same, you know,

Dr. Spencer Baron (16:55.499)
Brilliant.

Jeffrey Bone (17:11.2)
episode over and over day after day.

Dr Terry (17:16.989)
When somebody is sick, they get attention. Maybe their spouse was always going to work, but now they're not feeling good and the spouse stays home. How do you break that loop where, well, maybe I don't want to heal because I'm getting attention for the first time in 20 years.

Dr. Spencer Baron (17:17.387)
It's great.

Jeffrey Bone (17:32.823)
And so you acknowledge the secondary gain. And so you kind of bring it to light and you would make it aware. It's like, I can see it, you can see it, and we can kind of talk about it. And to be able to say, it's like, okay, there is the secondary gain of people care about you. They're texting you, calling you, there's more compassion, whatever it may be. But what is the cost of the secondary gain? This is like a diminished income.

feeling more worthless and useless and you, you, there's consequences on an ego basis, but we would recognize this is a secondary game and it's normal and it's understandable. It's like, okay, you go to the physical therapist or you go get massaged and you're touched more. And it's kind of like, we, lots of people are very, very lonely and all of sudden

people are talking to you and they're asking how your day is the front office, you know, the doctors, the physical therapist, you're being touched and it's kind of like, and we feel more human because in a modern society, we become very, very, isolated. And then all of sudden we get ill, but then we get community. get instant community when you when you're ill.

And that can feel really, really good. And so we would want to build off that one. Say, okay, you desire to be touched. and where I'm talking about touch, I'm talking about nonsexual touch. I'm just talking about being touched as a human being and, and, and, and. Okay. How can we build this community outside of just the illness identity? These are good things and these are normal things, but we can expand upon it in other healthier ways.

and where we don't have to pay other costs.

Dr. Spencer Baron (19:24.565)
That is outstanding. Let me ask you about modern medicine. People with this chronic pain, they're medicated over and over over again for their chronic conditions. How do you approach...

Jeffrey Bone (19:28.332)
Yes, I'll pass it.

Dr. Spencer Baron (19:42.892)
patient that has experienced that and and again that psychological overlay of the pain whether they're they're used to it or they're they're they're wishing to get rid of it but it's not not part of their identity how do you navigate the

Jeffrey Bone (19:58.009)
Are you talking about navigating the medication side or navigating what part of it in terms of they're in the modern medicine, seeing their pain management, they're in the schedule of getting the shots because nowadays, know, the doctors make a lot of money on the shot. And so there's a lot of shot clinics and you know, they're giving less medications out and they're more in like the routine, the subscription model of the shots right now.

And so I see a lot more of that and people kind of get kind of get stuck in that place. Even though you know, if you look on the literature of you know, what constant steroids, you know, steroids are going to actually be doing to the tendons and joints and that's outside my wheelhouse much more inside your wheelhouse of what the two of you know, but it is being able to take a step back, it is being able to kind of look at the flow of information.

Dr. Spencer Baron (20:35.829)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (20:56.142)
of what is kind of occurring and where are we going? Because people are in that kind of, and it's tough because some people absolutely are in that spectrum of like they need it. know, it's like maybe they have CRPS or something like that. And it's not going to, there's not a lot of other choices here, you know, but are we dealing with this like nonspecific lower back pain or, you know, some unremarkable imaging findings, but you still have these.

kind of symptoms and they're kind of like in this like in between place where they have jumped into the river of referrals and procedures and but there's no end point to it. There's there's no destination to it. And so we want to be very intentional of okay, what are we trying to do? And, you know, what is the end point for you because they have to draw the line in the sand, ultimately kind of for themselves. But to give them

agency that they can say no, that they can get other opinions that they can use other modalities to be able to kind of find the the right path ultimately for themselves. But most of the time, they're just kind of reactive and they're just following along with their GP sent them here and they just follow here and they don't kind of pay attention. Sometimes I you know, there's a book that I recommend sometimes to people.

I don't necessarily think the book has all the answers, but it makes you think and thinking is good. And the book is called Crooked. You both of you, are you familiar with it? The book Crooked? It's just about the low back industry, low back pain industry. And it just makes you aware of, know, all like, okay, you know.

Dr. Spencer Baron (22:36.426)
Not that one. No, tell me.

Jeffrey Bone (22:46.914)
the shots, I don't see the commercials about it as much. They go into it where they used to do more of like the laser therapy on the discs and some of these other kind of modalities where people just kind of get stuck in this industry because most people don't realize even if you're going to like famed hospital in the area and you're seeing the preeminent orthopedic physician, you're walking into somebody's business.

And they're going to sell you their business. People always think in terms of this is just medicine, but this is their business. This is how they get paid. If you have a heart issue and you go to the cardiologist in the hospital, it's like you're getting stents. Stents get paid and hospitals make money. And so you have to be aware because the sick are like walking ETMs.

and everyone is kind of tricked. And it's even better because sometimes they'll think, oh, I don't want to pay out of pocket. Sometimes we're a lot of chiropractors or acupuncture and I kind of more I'm out of pocket. That's really kind of expensive. But it's like they love the insurance money because the insurance money, people can just go sky high with those stents. And again, I'm not the cardiologist. I'm not saying that.

And no one needs a stent or no one needs a spinal cord stimulator. No one needs this. No one needs that. It's the ability to have choices and to see the system for what it is. I've been told I have ulnar impaction in my right wrist. And they told me it's like, yeah, we just it's really easy. It's great.

you break the spoon and then we'll just kind of fuse it. And it's kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. You know, it's like a great for you, you're getting paid. And you're gonna it's like, that sounds like holy hell for me. If I couldn't use the hand at all, maybe I'd sign up for it. But you didn't even ask, you know, how does it impact my life? Can I use the restroom and clean myself? They didn't ask those questions. They just saw something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could get that authorized.

Jeffrey Bone (25:00.534)
Yeah, I have the imaging to get it authorized and I can get paid on this. you know, do you me to do you want to fund my lifestyle?

Dr. Spencer Baron (25:13.364)
I am so, so happy that you are having this conversation and not what we have every day with patients, because the business model, the way you just packaged that is not a way that I've been doing it and I'm gonna start talking about it that way because that's true. And the spinal stimulator thing that is still in the testing, I had a patient that was gonna, a very athletic patient and has tried all sorts of things.

Jeffrey Bone (25:31.565)
Yes.

Dr. Spencer Baron (25:40.991)
They were going to get this thing. go, do you realize that they put a subdermal battery pack in your head? And how are you going to sit down? How are you going to stay as active even though you're out of pain? You know, and they didn't, they didn't think that far ahead, but they, you know, it was amazing to hear.

Jeffrey Bone (25:44.686)
Battery pack? Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey Bone (25:52.429)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (25:56.131)
That's a stepping back in again, and you gave them parts of the story. You gave them parts of the story that they did not have, because it was the future. It was the future, you know, travel mental time travel. They go, Hey, you're going to be on the tennis court and you're going to be doing X, Y or Z or you're doing these different things. How does this look like in terms of how does this fit into the perception of yourself and your lifestyle and all the rest?

Dr. Spencer Baron (26:03.518)
Yes.

Dr. Spencer Baron (26:06.897)
Ugh.

Dr Terry (26:27.551)
Hey doc, know stories can go both ways and so can perception and I want to pivot a little bit and let's talk about support groups because support groups sometimes people will after they come out they go I don't even recognize myself anymore and this chronic pain is totally stripped my identity. How do you help someone rebuild without giving them false hope?

Jeffrey Bone (26:30.531)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (26:49.838)
I tell them not to go to support groups. That's where I would start. It's a support group is only going to be as good as the moderator. And most of these have no moderator, especially if it's like online, it's like completely worthless, because it becomes this like cyclone of complaining of this sucks and this sucks. And again, that's almost like the shocking of the floor that I was talking about.

that feeds into that learned helplessness. It's like those support groups just go, it doesn't matter, it's not going to work. They're not going to approve it, this or this and this. And it's just this constant complaining. And there isn't this aspirational aspect to it. Because the problem is everybody that wins and everyone that gets better, they're not on the support group. They're living their life.

And so you have this aspect of the support group is only made up of people for whatever reason have been non responsive to treatments. So it's this non responsive group and they are just going around and around and around in a circle. I always call it, you know, like being told to pee in the corner of a round room. It's like you're not going to find relief in those support groups, you know, because you're not going to find that corner.

Dr. Spencer Baron (28:17.812)
That is fantastic. Your metaphors are tremendous. That is great. Let me ask you. You mentioned something a little bit earlier. Patients are told by.

Jeffrey Bone (28:18.446)
You

Dr. Spencer Baron (28:30.27)
their doctor that they tend to respect, that they have, let's say arthritis, or better yet, here's one that is devastating to me to hear. I've had young athletes, kids, know, earlier than their teens even, 12 years old, so on, that have come in, the parents said, yes, my son has been diagnosed with Sievers disease. right? Disease.

Jeffrey Bone (28:42.114)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (28:54.956)
Okay.

Dr Terry (28:57.385)
that's a good one. Yeah. All right.

Jeffrey Bone (28:57.794)
Disease, yes.

Dr. Spencer Baron (29:00.444)
It's plantar fascia. It's a condition of the foot or where the muscle is pulling off the butt. It's like a tendonitis basically. Disease? I mean, how do you deal with somebody that says, listen, I got this disease, it's chronic. What would you start with?

Jeffrey Bone (29:08.365)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (29:17.592)
Well, what would I start with? I mean, I would start with it's always important because I have a chronic illness. And when I was going through it was fascinating to watch because I go to multiple start with ENTs and multiple neurologists, multiple podiatrists, and I would see multiple of anything. And so whenever someone tells you you have a disease, the very first place is

You need additional opinions. You know, you cannot think that just because one person says one thing. You were talking about spinal cord stimulators. I went to a podiatrist because I have burning sensation in my right foot. In maybe five or 10 minutes, five or 10 minutes told me you should get a spinal cord stimulator. It's kind of like, I mean, how about that for a business model? You know, it was like they were selling solar panels or something. And it was horrible.

And so you know, and, and so the very first word I think most people should use in that situation is the word is maybe, well, maybe you do, maybe maybe you do. And so you just you acknowledge it because they've been carrying it. And so you're just not going to knock it out of their hand. And obviously, it's not a condition I diagnosed or or. But maybe you do, but maybe you don't.

And so let's look at all the possibilities and let's keep a wide open, you know, look at this of all the things that it could possibly be. And let's not just paint ourself into the corner with just this idea. So the crowbar, maybe.

It's also good when you're watching the news, by the way. You hear anything on the news, maybe. Maybe.

Dr Terry (31:11.999)
you

Dr. Spencer Baron (31:15.101)
Man, I have loved that. That is outstanding and so true. You know, sometimes I can't help myself. Sometimes when somebody will come in and they said they have knee pain, they were told they have or hip and they have they've been told that they need knee or hip replacement.

Dr Terry (31:15.135)
Right, right.

Jeffrey Bone (31:31.032)
Yes.

Dr. Spencer Baron (31:34.362)
and I'll examine them. go, look, I have just done, and this is, you know, after 40 years, you can't imagine how many people that have come to me saying that they were told they need a replacement of a joint. I go, I can't find it. I can't find what's wrong. You've just passed all my critical tests. And so fortunately, they stick with me nine times out of 10 and it resolves. But what about those that don't? I'm fascinated by it.

Jeffrey Bone (31:42.83)
Sure.

Jeffrey Bone (31:49.613)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (31:54.157)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (31:58.371)
There are people that have done studies where they had placebo back surgery and there was just a cut. They just had a cut and they didn't do anything else. And there are people that just didn't get better from it, but they would have the surgery again. It was like 5 % of people that would have the surgery again, even though they didn't get better.

But it was that confirmation that, you know, it's kind of like, it's like a Boy Scout badge. It's kind of like, see, it legitimizes whatever my issues are.

Dr. Spencer Baron (32:39.763)
So those that are living with chronic illness, know, is there, I mean, we've gone over a couple of things. I want to, I want to package it up for some of our viewers and listeners, you know, they come in with a chronic condition. What would you ask and what are they really thinking? What are some of the combinations of things that they're really thinking that it could be, provoking this chronic illness?

Jeffrey Bone (33:03.726)
It's, you know, for me, I'm always on the identity side. See, the two of you, you're on the pain side a little bit more. And the the under helping them understand the body mechanics, you help them you teach them about their body. It's amazing. It's like I've gone to chiropractors and physical therapists, and I learned so much more about my body through PTs and Kairos.

than I do with the orthos because the orthos are just telling me what's wrong and where to cut and not to what to stabilize and what to do this and in understanding the mechanics and motion of the body. And I've gone to three podiatrists. Okay, not one of them have said, well, let me see you walk. I did go to a physical therapist. Let me see you walk.

And it's like, okay, he's like this bone and this this bone, this joint right here is really stiff, we need to kind of work on this. And it's kind of like, it's like, wow, you know, like, there it is. And so I'm kind of meandering here, because you guys will work on the physical mechanics, you know, the body mechanics, and my side is the identity. And I am trying in my own way to kind of

loosen up that identity because it comes in scared. It comes in rigid. A lot of times people will come in and say, I need to get rid of these negative thoughts. I'm like, No, you don't. No, you don't. There's a lot of, you know, therapeutic techniques of like, we try to resolve these negative thoughts, we need to like fix these negative thoughts. It's as normal as a human being is to have these negative thoughts. But we want companions to these thoughts.

We want to understand these negative thoughts. We want to talk about these negative thoughts. We want to validate these kind of negative thoughts, but we want to expand and build from that to increase that cognitive flexibility to increase and expand that story. So there's this kind of problem. It's like and it's like their life is just seen through that one problem. And then we're just trying to be able to expand everything that they're able to do as a perception as a story.

Jeffrey Bone (35:20.781)
so that they don't get stuck in going like, am this narrow thing. I am, you know, I am my my illness. It's like, yeah, I have a chronic illness too. I have chronic pain too. It's kind of like, but that's, you always want to focus on my identity is based on what I can control.

And it's based on what I can do and the levers that I can pull in this world and not based on the things that I cannot do. I can't jump over my house. can't swim underwater for 20 miles. My identity has nothing to do with those things that I cannot do. But my identity is based on this. And that's how, when I got sick at first, it's like I started writing poetry. I started creating books and coloring books. And none of those things were

It's like, was the poetry. was some weird coloring book or starting a podcast. It was, but it was the momentum. I needed momentum of my story because I felt stuck in spinning my wheels in the mud. And I needed this kind of creation aspect of, know, what can my life be? What else can I do? What else? And that curiosity of what else is there because, because the, the attention, what you pay attention to

will reinforce what your story is. And it's like, I'm gonna pay attention to my foot pain. I'll pay attention to my body doesn't make immunogoblins anymore. And that's why I have a primary immune disorder. It's like that attention, wherever you pay attention, it's like, that's going to be who you are. So the neurons that fire together are wired together. And so we have to be able to expand that sort. We don't have to get rid. There's no getting rid of things. A lot of times we want to like,

Dr. Spencer Baron (36:59.792)
You

Jeffrey Bone (37:15.119)
we want to get rid of it's like no, no, we want to expand the story.

Jeffrey Bone (37:23.929)
Go for it.

Dr. Spencer Baron (37:24.136)
All right, I'm gonna totally flip the script here. What about those patients that we've had over the years that were told that it's in your mind, that stay positive, they dismiss their pain. I'm gonna give you a perfect example of what you're thinking of the answer. And that is, we had a patient, female, some 25 years ago that,

gave birth, it was a c-section and you know everything was fine and dandy but started having abdominal pain, chronic like pain, sharp pain, it got worse and worse and she kept going back to the obstetrician saying what you know is it what is going on here you know he dismissed it you know stay positive you'll be all right she ended up I mean going to other doctors and so on it wasn't until a year later she went away to the Bahamas with her family on a trip and fainted

Jeffrey Bone (37:58.447)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Spencer Baron (38:22.182)
from the pain. They brought her to the hospital there. They x-rayed the abdomen and there is a serial number of metallic plate to a rag that has been, that was dropped in the abdomen and never retrieved. And even though the obstetrician said, no, we have everything accounted for on the list, all the serial numbers. So it wasn't in her mind. What do do with someone that has been told just stay positive and has like a PTSD from it?

Jeffrey Bone (38:37.411)
Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey Bone (38:40.953)
Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey Bone (38:49.519)
Absolutely. I don't believe in toxic positivity. I don't believe that it all arises from the mind. The mind will perceive and try to create a story that will wrap around the experience as this kind of container of sorts. But I think people who, you know, most famous is John Sarno, it's kind of like express the anger and you'll cure your back pain kind of situation.

And it's, it's, I think it's, it's, call it like heating pad techniques. I think that's useful kind of like to express the anger. Somatic tracking, you know, comes out of, you know, using safety and, know, increasing a perception of safety associated with, you know, chronic pain. And I like, you know, the acknowledgement of like, yes, this is a safe sensation, but

with the acknowledgement of, you know, that the pain is real, that the injury is real. Like there are some things that are very, you know, legitimate here. And we don't have, we need the big story. know, psychologists, you know, I think you get into this inferior kind of complex because they can't prescribe anything, you know, like they can't, you know, do surgeries. They can't do this, they can't do this. And so they can just work with the mind. So

It all has to be the mind, you know, because that's all I can work with. So it's kind of like, that's the whole story. And they want to be the one to sell. I can cure this. can cure. And I've never cured in two and a half decades. I've never cured anybody in my entire life. And I never will cure anybody. But I've kept some people alive and I help people diminish suffering. That is what I do is I help people diminish suffering as they're going through difficult situations.

or dealing with medical issues or whatever it may be. Because the mind is obviously sitting in the body, but it's like, do you have an understanding of your body? Do you understand these different muscles and this is bracing this and this is bracing that and understanding all of these other aspects of how the body moves and how the body works?

Jeffrey Bone (41:15.639)
And oftentimes they don't and they're just lacking the story from like the neck down and psychologists and therapists and coaches is like story neck up. Well, we need both. We need both. So I and I'm biased and I've been told I was told with with a primary immune disorder and that it was just anxiety when I came in because my symptoms didn't fit a nice decision tree. I was messy.

And so, it doesn't fit into the decision tree. You know, it must be, you know, psychological because it's like, it's the one thing that I asked from all my doctors and like, I don't mind it, but they refused to do it. They, they won't say, I don't know. They won't say that it's like, they have to come up with an ICD, ICD 10 code. And it's kind of like, it has to land the period has to be an ICD 10 code and

You know, sometimes it's like, I don't know here, let me see if I can refer you out to a few different people that could get some different eyes and thoughts on this. But like, that's not what they do. It's kind of like, they will say it's kind of like, well, I I get I have bladder pain, you know, my bladder hurts. Well, I don't know, you know, here, here's some flow max, you know, and maybe that's gonna help.

And it's kind of like, all right, I'll take the flow. I'm desperate. know, my floor is being shocked, you know, as I'm becoming more more helpless. Sure, I'll try the flow max. I'll try this. I'll try that, whatever. But there's a it's one of my favorite words is there are lot of doctors out there that use the swag technique. Do know what the swag technique is? A scientific wild ass guess.

Dr Terry (43:07.441)
I love that. I'll have to remember that one.

Jeffrey Bone (43:08.303)
There's a lot of them out there. They're just using the swag technique.

Jeffrey Bone (43:16.335)
You

Dr. Spencer Baron (43:18.772)
I'm using that immediately. I think that's great. I like the toxic positivity thing too. I've never heard that either. That is fantastic. Sorry, go ahead, Terry.

Jeffrey Bone (43:27.481)
Yeah, because again, you're going into the shrink and the shrink is it that's their business. And it's kind of like, if people go to the psychiatrist, and again, I'm not anti anything, I'm kind of pro everything. But I am not into like getting super narrow on things. And they go to the psychiatrist, they wanted me to they just want to give me pills. I'm like, yes, that's their business model. That's what they do. It's like, I'm not saying it's good or bad, or this or that or whatever. It's kind of like,

Dr Terry (43:30.907)
No.

Jeffrey Bone (43:56.88)
But that's who they are. Like, you know, it's the scorpion and the frog, you know, crossing the river and the scorpion, you know, stabs the frog. I don't know if you know that, that story, but it's just in their nature. You know, the deal was made that the scorpion wasn't going to, you know, you know, stab the frog, but halfway across the scorpion does and why it's like, because it's in my nature. This is what I do. What do you expect? But a lot of people when they're on the outside and they're in the land of wellness,

Dr. Spencer Baron (44:23.687)
Ha

Jeffrey Bone (44:25.911)
You know, it's like they're not educated in, you know, what this business model is, what the system is.

Dr Terry (44:36.893)
Alright, I want to, it's kind of a two part question, when somebody comes to see you and they feel like everything's unpredictable, the pain, the energy, the symptoms, what are some practical ways someone can regain their sense of control over their life again? And here's the second part, without going on the internet and looking for everything. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (44:58.856)
Dr. Google. Yeah.

Jeffrey Bone (45:00.003)
the the I think, you know, the first place is okay, like, so I don't I'm not a big fan of gratitude practices, because people will focus the like, I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful for this, but they won't feel the gratitude. It like the feeling doesn't arise. So they feel like they're not doing it right. You know, again, I'm failing it. I'm you know, it's like, and so part of regaining their agency.

and that's the agency control is by practicing noticing noticing is like the is like the gratitude but we're taking out the emotional state and because you'll ask somebody they walk in it's like so you know what would you do today what do you do this morning they're like nothing it's kind of like no no there's no story there it's like

And it's like, okay, well, it looks like you got dressed and did you eat? Did you shower? Did you do this? Did you do that? Did you get in and out of a car? Did you drive here? Did you do all these things? And did you notice any of this? Were you paying attention to any of this? Because a lot of times people because the brain is ultimately not wired for happiness is wired for survival. And so since because of that, it's going to narrow its focus on whatever the problem is.

And it's going to completely disregard everything else as part of the story. And so I want to kind of pull the story out of the jaws of the problem machine of the brain and have them noticing everything that they're doing. It's like teaching them, okay, this is what's called activities of daily living. You know, what are you able to do? You know, what are you able to use? And getting them much more in tune with

and having them pay attention. So I like mindfulness, but I don't have a mindful practice where I just sit there with my eyes closed for 20 minutes. I use mindfulness throughout the entire day of being mindful of everything that's going on. And it's like, yeah, yeah, my right foot hurts. It's like, yeah, but my hands don't, my hands feel great. My left foot feels pretty darn good. And I'm talking, I can hear you, I can see you, I'm using my brain and all these different things.

Jeffrey Bone (47:16.655)
let alone what's going on in terms of my digestion, kidneys, liver and everything else. And so because the thing is when people go to see the doctor, they're 98 % healthy typically. 98, 99 % healthy, but that's not what's being paid attention to. Just like if you're hungry, you're 99 % away from starvation. It's going to take months for you to starve. And so, but

people don't walk in going like, I'm 98 % healthy, you know, they're saying like, I'm, I'm, would say I am, you know, say I am, you know, like this lower back pain, I am, you know, this, you know, whatever symptom, whatever issue, whatever, whatever hurts, and that becomes what they're focused on. So the practice of noticing is so important to be able to loosen up the awareness, but you have to know

that the brain is going to pay attention to the problem. And the brain is going to do that because it wants to help you survive. But survival is not an issue in this moment. And what are the other things that you're kind of paying attention to? And I'm a huge fan of action dissolves anxiety. And it doesn't always have to be based on whatever the problem is, maybe you need to do your taxes and you're stressed out. But even if you just take any kind of action, you clean the car you

clean out the bathroom, whatever, it's going to help resolve that anxiety because you're engaged in action and making sure that you're doing as much as you possibly can.

Dr Terry (48:56.191)
Before we go to our favorite section, do want to ask you one last question and that is for somebody who's on a professional level of a couple decades as well as living with it, how do you help people find purpose in their chronic illness?

Jeffrey Bone (49:11.823)
You know, I think you start by grieving. I think you allow grief to occur and we don't have to pretend that we're the same. And so there has to be letting go of certain things because the capacity is different. It's changed, it's morphed a little bit. So we allow ourselves to grieve and then we focus then on values. what, because values are going to be much more

durable than you know, particular goals or feelings or thoughts are going to be much more transient. So what are the main core values that you live by? And, and then I think it's kind of like so important is that all self help should not end with the self. It needs to be all self help is what are you doing for other people?

And it has to transcend yourself. It's not self-idolizing. It's too much of our Western modern world of like the individual is the core, but we're tribal animals. And we're only going to feel truly aligned with who we are if we are aligned with our tribe and we're giving back to our tribe. And so what is it that you enjoy, that you're good at, that can help other people?

You know, what is it that you enjoy that you're good at that can help other people? And that would be the, you know, the three easy kind of kind of questions. It involves some unpacking, obviously, but in terms of this context, that's where I would go.

Dr. Spencer Baron (50:57.147)
Beautiful. So we are now entering one of our favorite sections called the rapid fire question section. There's five questions. You seem to be very nimble on your feet here, so then I'm going to throw them out to you. And they require obviously a very brief answer so we can get through them. But if you're ready, I got question number one for you. Are you ready?

Dr Terry (51:06.015)
You

Jeffrey Bone (51:19.445)
Alright.

Dr. Spencer Baron (51:23.367)
Alright, Dr. Bone, if someone listening right now feels trapped in their body, frustrated, losing hope, what's the first shift mentally or behaviorally you would want them to start today?

Jeffrey Bone (51:33.358)
I would I would want them to do expressive writing where they write down every single thought that's going through their head in that moment. Like I don't know what to write. So you write down I don't know what to write and or like this is really stupid. So you write down this is really stupid. One long continuous run sentence and just go for 10 minutes set a timer on the phone and you just just whatever is in the mind in that moment you just dump it out just dump it out and at the end you rip it up and you throw it away so no one would ever read it again and so that you express.

expressive writing.

Dr. Spencer Baron (52:08.199)
Whoa, how cool was that? I love this, I love this. All right, question number two. You talk about meaning and suffering. What is something about your own illness experience that actually kind of, it's kind of ridiculous or even funny now, but probably wasn't at that time?

Jeffrey Bone (52:27.191)
I think I like the word absurd. like, you know, some, some Albert Camus, some French existential philosophy of just, this is so effing absurd that like my bone marrow doesn't want to make mature B cells to, you know, for this to kind of to make my immunoglobulins anymore. This is just absurd. And I can embrace the absurdity with like laughter.

And in laughter is a great, you know, emotional, existential massage. So embracing the absurdity of it all.

Dr. Spencer Baron (53:07.245)
beautiful. Question number three. People listening right now are going, they're going to think they understand you after this conversation, but what's something about you they would completely get wrong?

Jeffrey Bone (53:20.013)
that I'm an introvert that I like to I'm by myself a lot. I'm not you know, I'm kind of like a lone wolf for the most part and people think like, I'm super talkative and I can go on and like have all these chats and all the rest. It's like, I can go through days without like talking to anybody and be perfectly fine that I'm pretty much an introvert.

Dr. Spencer Baron (53:45.699)
Awesome. Awesome. That is great. Okay. I love this question. Number four. You're both a psychologist and a poet.

Jeffrey Bone (53:50.319)
Now I'm a chronic, I like to say I'm a chronic illness coach. My podcast goes everywhere. So I like to be able to go everywhere to treat people. And so I'm a chronic illness coach. It enables me to expand myself across the world here.

Dr. Spencer Baron (54:08.881)
Very good. When you're going through something personally, do you process it more like a clinician trying to understand it or like a poet trying to feel it?

Jeffrey Bone (54:09.733)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (54:18.128)
I'm much more like a poet. bring the tears. I bring the feelings. I allow myself just to be human with it. I would say, you know, it's like you can say the poet, but I just say I normalize the kind of like the feelings, the sorrow, the sadness, and I allow myself to kind of go there. I let the clinical part of my brain, having been a psychologist for two and a half decades, it's like I'll let that guy, he does the cleanup.

Okay, he comes in after the movies done to clean up all the popcorn on the floor. Like that's what the clinician can do. But you know, the poet, the existentialist, the humanist, that's the person that needs to go through this experience. The clinician can just pick up the trash.

Dr. Spencer Baron (55:12.763)
You, I gotta tell you, you have the best examples that you distill things down to simple life processes. That is a beautiful realization, that's true. All right, last question. With everything you think about, pain, meaning, suffering, what's something simple in your day that brings you an almost irrational amount of joy?

Jeffrey Bone (55:14.8)
You

Jeffrey Bone (55:18.434)
You don't understand it unless you can make it simple.

Jeffrey Bone (55:27.566)
Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey Bone (55:39.013)
When I find a new song, I like jazz music and so and I like jazz music without lyrics because I don't want to be told how to feel. I want to just allow the music, the sound waves. I like the I like the term that musicians bend sound to decorate time. Musicians bend sound to decorate time. And so I just allow that that

dose of sound to come in and allows me to explore myself. I love the painter Rothko, the Russian abstract painter, just very simple, just like blocks of color. And I'm always fascinated. I don't like that. don't like, I like this one. Well, that's strange. It's big blocks of color. There's no object here. Why do I like this? And then it enables me to explore myself.

because I'm reacting to this painting that I wasn't reacting to. And the same with like a song. There's a band called Ezra Collective and it's like Chewbacca Hutchings. And I love just listening to jazz music with no lyrics that just enables me to explore my own inner landscape.

Dr. Spencer Baron (56:57.467)
That's like a Rorschachs of music. You're given this medley of sound and you apply your own. That is actually fascinating. I never even thought about that.

Jeffrey Bone (56:58.756)
Yes.

Jeffrey Bone (57:05.956)
Yes. And again, and what's what's beautiful is that, you I'm always different, you know, human beings, different thoughts, different feelings, different this different that, and it just it hits differently. It is it isn't the same. It's like stimulation, but it's stimulation. And it depends where I am, I may travel to different places, I may have, you know, beautiful fantasies in one direction, I may have deep sorrow in other directions, it just kind of

Dr Terry (57:10.431)
I've never thought of

Dr. Spencer Baron (57:16.987)
Yeah.

Jeffrey Bone (57:35.086)
depends on the moment of just wherever that music takes me.

Dr. Spencer Baron (57:43.417)
what was the most recent music that you liked the most? Because you know Dr. Terry is going to go look it up and play it before.

Jeffrey Bone (57:49.925)
Well, Ezra Collective does have lot of, they have singers that come in if you go, so Ezra Collective and then Shabaka Hutchings who's in a lot of different bands. I remember this one song and it was in his band Sons of Kemet. I think My Queen is Harriet Tubman was the song, it was the first song which was frenetic. There was so much kind of like energy.

Dr Terry (57:51.327)
100 %

Jeffrey Bone (58:19.316)
And it was just this, you know, terrific, sensory kind of experience that just it was like, you know, it was it was musical adderall. And it just kind of it made me kind of like feel alive. There was a liveness to it. And and so I don't like necessarily like the Kenny G. I'm not trying to say I'm Kenny G. And that soft kind of music, but I like

a little bit of the freneticness of jazz music that's a little bit more kind of like a little upbeat, know, so say kind of like the Afro Cuban Latin jazz.

Dr. Spencer Baron (59:01.361)
Goodness, that is a completely different perspective on listening to music. When do you listen most or the best? In the car? In your home?

Jeffrey Bone (59:07.024)
Usually at night or if I'm writing something, which I can't definitely have lyrics when I'm writing something because I can't hear words. I need just to hear kind of music to see kind of what's going to arise. But I like laying in bed at night, the best, the best song for relaxing at night.

So I put my acupressure mat down in bed. I like an acupressure mat and it's relaxing. And then there's a band called Hermanos Gutierrez and it's like this clean guitar sound. And there's a song called, I think, Low Sun and it's like the most relaxing song ever to me.

Dr Terry (59:59.931)
I am re-listening to this show and all this stuff down. You're right.

Jeffrey Bone (01:00:00.493)
Ha!

Dr. Spencer Baron (01:00:02.905)
Yes, yes, I knew it. knew it. my gosh. Dr. Bone, this has been a fascinating hour. Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing such cool information. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Jeffrey Bone (01:00:14.288)
Well, thank you. I didn't want to waste your time. I respect your time. There's backs to be cracking. And so it's like, I don't want to waste your time. like, oh, you know, came across this guy on LinkedIn. Oh, this is gonna be a dud. And he's just gonna have no personality and just kind of repeat the same old go cognitive behavioral therapy kind of BS, you know, all the same. And it's like, we're here for the conversation. We're here for

Dr. Spencer Baron (01:00:20.263)
Not one second.

No.

Dr Terry (01:00:42.734)
Jeffrey Bone (01:00:43.034)
to make life interesting.

Dr Terry (01:00:45.459)
I thought none of that. I didn't think any of that stuff when I reached out. So hey, doc, thanks for your time, and thanks for your inspiration, and thanks for your knowledge.

Jeffrey Bone (01:00:47.51)
Hahaha

Dr. Spencer Baron (01:00:49.851)
not a second.

Dr. Spencer Baron (01:00:55.835)
Really.

Jeffrey Bone (01:00:56.496)
Well, thank you. If anyone wants to reach out to me, they can go to Dr. bone dot live dr b o n e dot live.

Dr Terry (01:01:07.055)
God buddy. Have a blessed day man.

Jeffrey Bone (01:01:07.94)
You as

Dr. Spencer Baron (01:01:08.53)
fantastic.